Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I want to lose every debate

sive.rs

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 386 posts

Re: I want to lose every debate

#291

Post by aeturnum »

qwertox wrote: post #272

I don't get it. There are many sex workers which are forced to do this job, some even under threat. I also don't see an issue using analogies to explain things. Was the Hindu person poor itself? If so, how has this person dealt with sickness in the family? Any religion is a perfect recipe for peace, it just depends on the fairness and good will of those practicing it. Why should partying not be a good thing as long a…

This does have enormous TED energy.

I think the idea is to quickly touch on profiles of people whose world views (apparently?) contradict the authors and then to promote the idea of listening, with an open heart, to people who you believe at the outset are misguided. I think this is because it's common for us to find powerful new insights into how people see the world or feel about things when temporarily we set aside our judgements and understand the internal logic of people we disagree with? That people make more sense once you see things with their eyes, and then also the world makes more sense because those people want things in the world too?

I dunno, it's pretty fluffy.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#292

Post by trynewideas »

pjerem wrote: post #119
eggie5 wrote: post #76

Years later, still puzzling over Thomas Jefferson's passivity at Philadelphia, John Adams would claim that "during the whole time I sat with him in Congress, I never heard him utter three sentence together" Jefferson, himself would one day advise a grandson, "when I hear another express an opinion which is not mine, I say to myself, he has a right to his opinion, as I to mine." And "Why should I question it. His erro…

> Why should I question it. His error does me no injury Isn't that an incredibly dangerous behavior especially in political debates ? I mean, wrong political opinions do injure people. Maybe not the other people in the room but the people who elected them. Do I miss something ?

> Do I miss something ?

Yes, the part of governmental politics that involves creating and enforcing policy. Jefferson would listen to people's arguments in legislature but infrequently debated them because his strength (in his own estimation, at least) was in writing responses, especially as policy proposals.

Someone speaking a disagreement does him no harm, even if what's being described would be harmful. But someone implementing something he viewed harmful in enforced policy is different, and he treated it very differently.

Governmental politics tends to emphasize, even glamorize, the former, but the latter is what actually affects people and Jefferson often focused his attention on it.

One could strongly suggest that Jefferson's preference for written arguments and policy over political debate and lobbying is why Hamilton had more effective Federalist influence over early policies of the United States, and manifests even more strongly in Jefferson's prescriptions for the republic — the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights, wanting to rewrite the Constitution every 20 years, his opposition to slavery and promotion of universal free education, freedom both of and from religion in government, strongly held national liberties and local self-government — many of which were at the time, or have always been, ignored in practice.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#293

Post by Octokiddie »

> ... I don’t want to convince anyone of my existing perspective. I would rather be convinced of theirs. It’s more interesting to assume that they are right.

There's no need to assume anything. Ask good questions instead.

It might not seem like it, but asking questions is one of the most important skills there is. This skill is not taught in K-12. If anything, you're taught to assume that what you read/see is right. In many degree programs, you also won't be taught how to ask questions but rather repeat what you've read or heard, with some level of analysis.

The difference between good questions and bad questions often comes down to leading. The subtext of a leading question is that the asker is trying to push the askee in a particular direction. Those question tend to yield bad answers of the kind that won't convince you of much.

Better questions are interrogative-led. They start with words like "who", "where", "what" and "why", not words like "do" or "are". It takes practice to ask these kinds of questions and the follow-ups that are needed to actually be convinced by someone else's argument.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#296

Post by JAlexoid »

Lutger wrote: post #150
atoav wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is good advice, it is still in a debate-mindset where, ultimately, it is about "winning" a conversation. But if you argue with someone who holds factually wrong opinions is it truly winning "if you showed them" and they think "what an asshole" and move on? That type of person is practised at brushing off a debate loss. That means if you enjoy winning such a debate it tells more about you than about the per…

Debate can be fun (for some) as a game, and force you to articulate your position well, and you can learn from it. But there are different modes of engagement which are often much more helpful. What people often don't realize is that winning a debate doesn't necessarily mean you side with the truth. A debate is aimed at winning on your existing opinions and the other losing. It is not aimed at discovery, validation o…

> force you to articulate your position well

That's the problem with how we see a debate. It's just about that. There's no need to present your position in a compelling way or find common grounds with whoever you're debating.

If you read any books by professional negotiators - you'll notice that they conduct themselves very differently than you would in a debate.

Getting to Yes and Getting Past No have been eye opening to me. I no longer feel like I even need to "win an argument".

> the public can gain a lot because a debate forces you to be very on point

I recall reading some articles stating, that debates fail to convince anyone of anything. Public debates only encourage tribalism, IMO. If you watch a presidential debate - no amount of "winning" changed people's opinions.

I can even argue, that just hearing "X won the debate" will cause more impact; compared to listening to them.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#297

Post by yamtaddle »

Acutulus wrote: post #243
joenot443 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree re. Destiny. Between him, Vaush, Hasan (ugh), and the rest of them, I feel like we’re intellectually stunting an entire generation of teenagers. I had a friend in NYC who used to read a tonne load of books but now just watches the 3h Hasan stream every day and then parrots every take the video game streamer says as if it’s gospel. I ended up cutting him out of my life because he just grew so tiring to b…

What's interesting to me is how I've started to really dislike people in that mindset/space even when they offer points that I agree with. Take Hasan for example. He says a number of things I agree with when I hear them. But the delivery of them is awful, to the point that it corrodes the foundation on which he stands. It's hard for me to accept that you promote a position of shared empowerment and broad equality whe…

Reads like these streamers are the left-wing equivalent of conservative AM radio and about half of Fox News' air time. Interesting. I didn't know we had those sorts on "our" side (Maddow and such are a bit similar, but the tone's still not quite like a Shapiro or a Levin or even a Limbaugh). But then, I've spent a grand total of maybe 15 minutes on Twitch, ever. I didn't even know there was political commentary on there.

Since those folks (the AM radio / unhinged Fox News guys) have been wildly successful at getting people to vote a certain way and swing rhetoric hard in the direction they promote, I'm torn on whether or not to be upset about this. If it eventually gets us a developed-world healthcare system and typical-in-most-of-the-rest-of-the-OECD worker protections and benefits, I guess I don't care if shitty psychological manipulation is what does it, if the alternative is that we continue not to manage to achieve those for several more decades. It'd be cool if my elementary-aged kids could have some nice things before they're middle-aged—I've only got 30-40 years left, probably, so have given up hope on any of this happening before I'm ancient, but maybe my kids' kids will fully reap the benefits, on the back half of this century.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#298

Post by JAlexoid »

vidarh wrote: post #68
atoav wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is good advice, it is still in a debate-mindset where, ultimately, it is about "winning" a conversation. But if you argue with someone who holds factually wrong opinions is it truly winning "if you showed them" and they think "what an asshole" and move on? That type of person is practised at brushing off a debate loss. That means if you enjoy winning such a debate it tells more about you than about the per…

"Winning" a debate can have value if there's an audience and where there's something important at stake, but people need to consider that if you get into "debate mode", there's virtually zero chance the other side will consider your viewpoint for a second, so it's a tradeoff with respect to whether convincing an audience matters or having a good conversation where both sides are open to learning something. I absolute…

Has anyone ever provided any evidence, that debate content ever influenced audience's opinions?

Re: I want to lose every debate

#299

Post by yamtaddle »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #184
scns wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might originate from brain physiology. Daniel Amen had done 5000 brain scans 20 years ago, no idea how many until now. From one of his books i learned that contrarian behaviour can come from a disfunction in the Cingulate cortex. Whatever i say, the first thing my mother says 95% of the time is "No" or another dismissal. It was astounding to see my son acting the same way, answering "No, thats wrong" to things he…

there's a talk on persuasion - I believe Chris Voss is the presenter - where one of the techniques is to phrase your question so that the answer you want is 'no'. E.g. rather than say 'would you like to go to the movies' you'd say 'is there anything you'd rather do than go to the movies'. It's interesting that this works - he said that saying 'no' is a defensive mechanism that enforces boundaries, maybe more so with…

Voss' stuff would usually be pretty shitty to use on people you're friendly with (and I found a lot of the anecdotes in his book... strained credulity, let's say, to be polite) but in this case might actually be great for breaking those "nobody can decide what to do" sorts of situations. Make people actively choose what they'd rather do than what you suggested. Could work.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#300

Post by JAlexoid »

actionablefiber wrote: post #289
nibbleshifter wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing more tedious in adult life than some debate club weenie trying to turn every random fucking conversation into a debate. I strongly suspect debate club has a net negative impact on peoples social skills. It teaches a bunch of anti patterns to successful social interactions. Like, you will be shooting the shit with the lads down pub the once or twice you see them per year when this dickhead (and every…

As someone who did high school debate competitively for four years and still judges competitions nearly every weekend... I really don't think this tracks in reality. It really sounds like you're describing a caricature, and maybe it's based on someone you know, but I don't think it's really the normal outcome for people who debate. There are surely former debaters who still feel the need to prove themselves to their…

Most people love to win, that includes arguments.

What a lot of people failed to learn from debates club, is that a formal "win" is a net loss of a relationship.

Post reply on HN