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“Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

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Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#291

Post by grok22 »

rightbyte wrote: post #204
grok22 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think managers will do that (keep popel around just in case), but businessmen (or CEO's) will optimize for what's best for the business. No? A lower-level manager who actually sees the nitty-gritty of getting something done will not really have as much of a say in the broader business.

> businessmen (or CEO's) will optimize for what's best for the business. No? Really? I feel most optimize for their short term bonuses. Which makes them take too great risks since they won't owe the shareholders anything if they fail. Like all these overhiring sprees.

Yeah, CEO's likely optimize for their bonuses...depressing to think about it; but most likely the CEO's compensation is aligned to what the company wants to be the outcome financially.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#292

Post by wombatpm »

nishs wrote: post #214
petilon wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Covid is not over. But the pandemic is over.

What is your distinction between the two?

People were scared during the pandemic. Until the fatality rate for COVID goes up significantly, people are going to ignore the risks.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#293

Post by sausagefeet »

MAGZine wrote: post #92
sausagefeet wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cutting everyone's salary will dislodge your top performers who can get a better position even in poor market conditions. Will it? Are your top performers only there because of the pay? And how do you even determine who your top performers are? I see this sort of logic frequently and I don't even know how to measure it, much less believe it.

which is to say, in your org, the top performers are not the top paid? not great. sort of sounds like a way to lose your top performers if I'm honest.

As I said, I'm not even sure how to properly measure what being a top performer is.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#294

Post by readonthegoapp »

this was pretty funny - prof was just like...these execs and boards are lazy and stupid. :-D

i think he's being too kind.

but it seems there would have to be some real positives in disciplining your workforce through layoffs -- to not ask for raises or vacation, to not try to unionize, etc. but he seems pretty convinced.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#295

Post by TomSwirly »

tarr11 wrote: post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

> encourage top performers to seek new opportunities.

Top performer here. I would welcome a corporation that treated my coworkers properly.

Don't project your antisocial attitudes onto the rest of us.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#296

Post by latexr »

tarr11 wrote: post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

> Curious if there is research here on how this impacts the company?

I remember reading something like this in Simon Sinek’s “Leaders Eat Last”[1]. Might’ve been anecdotal examples instead of research, though. I don’t necessarily recommend you read the whole book, but it may be a starting point for references.

My answer to the next quote is partially informed by memories of the book.

> Seems like it would also increase stress and encourage top performers to seek new opportunities.

In the case you cited, everyone got a proportional cut but senior management’s was higher. That signals to workers the company is prioritising them over short-term profits, increasing trust and making workers more invested in getting through the slump with the company as opposed to running away. If they’re successful and wages go back up, a powerful precedent of trust will have been set. Which might not even be necessary, as a company which goes this route probably has given other signals over the years.

Maybe that doesn’t matter to top performers who only care about money, but fortunately I don’t think those are as prevalent as HN may make us think.

[1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16144853-leaders-eat-las...

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#297

Post by candiodari »

acdha wrote: post #259
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What tech companies are even doing dividends anymore? I guess Microsoft has a small one?

https://investor.apple.com/dividend-history/default.aspx

91 cents per year on a 138$ stock? And this is considered good?

Well, I can understand now why everybody gets out immediatly if stocks drop a little bit. Average daily movement of the stock is 4 dollars, and 8 is not unheard of ...

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#298

Post by red-iron-pine »

__turbobrew__ wrote: post #175
frozenlettuce wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, in some countries it is illegal to do a paycut.

Yea, constructive dismissal is a thing and some courts may determine that you have to pay out severance after somebody has their pay cut and then leaves.

A company-wide paycut of only 10% is unlikely to be considered "constructive dismissal" esp. if in lieu of layoffs.

If you, specifically, were given a 40% paycut, or maybe limited to just your team, that's a different story.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#299

Post by acdha »

candiodari wrote: post #297
acdha wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://investor.apple.com/dividend-history/default.aspx

91 cents per year on a 138$ stock? And this is considered good? Well, I can understand now why everybody gets out immediatly if stocks drop a little bit. Average daily movement of the stock is 4 dollars, and 8 is not unheard of ...

The question was which tech companies were doing it at all. I provided some data but not a value judgement.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#300

Post by blagie »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #213
blagie wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having seen both, I'm much more likely to leave /after/ a layoff than after a 10% paycut. In abstract, if there were a way to rank employees by ROI and contribution perfectly fairly, I might not worry about layoffs personally. However: 1) In my career, I've never seen layoffs which were at all good at selecting the bottom 10%. Who gets dropped is pretty random. 2) I care about other people I work with. A 10% layoff m…

> Having seen both, I'm much more likely to leave /after/ a layoff than after a 10% paycut. It's different when layoffs are happening across the industry. When everyone is doing layoffs, seeing your company do layoffs isn't as surprising. It's expected as everyone adjusts to changing market conditions. But when everyone is doing layoffs and your company cuts your compensation, it's a sign that you might be underpaid…

As an employee, part of the upside of a pay cut is that I'm not looking at successive rounds unless the business is still bleeding.

As a business, it depends on the type of business, but pay cuts tend to be a more effective way to stem bleeding. For example, a consulting firm (so horizontally scalable) with 90% of the employees can only do 90% as much work. Revenues dip. That leads to a cycle where further layoffs are necessary. A pay cut, on the other hand, doesn't have the same dip in output as a layoff.

Now, all that said, many businesses (including some that did layoffs) are vastly overstaffed, to where productivity would be higher with fewer people. But even that can be managed more gracefully.

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