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Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

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291–300 of 683 posts

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#291
post #179

Everyone always goes for the discrimination angle, but what frightens me is that like other modern automated tech of this decade the facial recognition used here probably has a horrendous false positive rate which most institutions will none the less treat as the final truth. Unrelated this is also why I fear most of this new AI stuff so much despite working in the field; the accuracy rates on these things in product…

The false positive rate on quality facial recognition is actually very low. I'm not weighing in whether or not it is proper to always use it, just as someone that's deeply experienced in commercial applications of facial recognition.

> The false positive rate on quality facial recognition is actually very low.

It depends on the purpose. For identity verification purposes, when you already have independent reason to suspect that someone is specifically Person X, then a "very low" false positive rate is likely sufficient.

For filtering, however, "very low" isn't enough. Suppose your facial recognition system has a 0.001% false positive rate (one per 100k), but you have a list of 1000 banned faces and your venue sees 10,000 visitors per night. You're making ten million comparisons, and that "very low" false positive rate will still result in 100 false matches.

That could still be okay, if a match just involves (here) pulling the patron aside for an ID verification. Asking 100 people for ID is much more benign than turning 100 people away at the turnstile. MSG here did appear to follow the match with a secondary verification (per the article), but I shudder to think of all the venues that will hear "very low false positive rate" and not really think through the consequences.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#292
post #117

The legal rights of a corporation should rapidly decrease as it gains market power. My neighborhood bar should be allowed to 86 me for just about anything, but Madison Square Garden Entertainment, Ticketmaster, and Live Nation should not. Same thing with google and Amazon banning people from their platform for a single good faith credit card chargeback.

Unless your neighborhood bar is the only bar.

I mean, there are lots of other bars, so it's not really meaningful statement.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#293
post #289

Seems like it’s an unpopular opinion, but it seems fairly reasonable to me to restrict someone who is currently, actively suing you from using your place of business. It’s neither punitive nor petty. It’s simply practical from a legal perspective.

> it seems fairly reasonable to me to restrict someone who is currently, actively suing you from using your place of business.

This isn’t someone who is actively suing them.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it can be used against them, too Is it facial recognition that's the problem here, or the policy itself? In theory, they could hand out pictures of everybody who wasn't allowed in to the security staff and use low-tech facial recognition to enforce the same policy - assuming it was scalable, would it be OK then? I remember reading that IBM got into trouble when it first computerized its personnel files because some…

You're right: it's the policy that's bad. However, facial recognition is what makes enforcing that policy possible, and society and the law haven't changed quickly enough to deal with the repercussions. For instance, say 18 year old "Joe" gets caught stealing soda from a fast food place. The manager kicks him out and bans him from the store. Fast forward a decade, when Joe walks back into the store with his wife and…

It's always the policy that should be modified, and not the tech that should be stopped.

Because bad policies can do only damage.

And tech can do both good and bad.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#295

I’m thrilled to see facial recognition applied against people in a position to speak out loudly against it. A lot of people seem OK with it when it’s policing the bad parts of town. This is their reminder that it can be used against them, too.

I don't think what a lot of people think about facial recognition is very relevant for its adoption or evolution? CCTV and facial recognition are both used around the world accross cultures and political systems and not 1 citizen voted for (or against) them. Not in totalitarian regimes nor in countries that pretend to be democratic.

It’s because we aren’t governed by a democracy, we’re governed by a massive administrative state. Some middle manager vying for a promotion decides adding cameras will benefit him in some way, privacy be damned. For example, TSA recently started doing facial recognition in airports and most passengers were just happily going along with it last time I went through security. The public is expected to submit and comply, there’s no democracy anywhere in that process.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. For me, the issue is that this restriction is upheld at point of entry and not point of sale. I get it’s a harder problem to restrict who tickets are sold to, but if a venue like that wants to get petty about who can attend their shows then the responsibility is on them to communicate that before the event. To flip this another way, in any other normal circumstance, when you get banned from a venue you’d get…

Yea how stupid. Everyone in this thread has already recognized how many faces so far today with their eyes and nothing blew up? Look at the personal computer? It is just a better place to hold your recipes. We basically live in 1980 + having a more efficient way to hold your cookie recipes instead of in cumbersome recipe books.

It's not that simple. Scale and ease of use matters. That is why when the government attempted to cross-reference the various administrative (mostly paper) files in a single database, around a single social security number, using a computer, it caused a huge scandal, the project was abandoned, and an independent regulatory agency was created in order to prevent something like this from happening again (and also deal with other data privacy issues).

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#297
post #289

Seems like it’s an unpopular opinion, but it seems fairly reasonable to me to restrict someone who is currently, actively suing you from using your place of business. It’s neither punitive nor petty. It’s simply practical from a legal perspective.

I don't take issue to that. I think using facial recognition paired with a database of naughty / nice individuals is going to pose a plethora of societal issues down the road. It is evocative of China's social credit system somewhat.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The yondr device looks like it could be defeated with a magnet or a sharp knife.

Places that use Yondr also make you go through airport-like security and won't allow either of those things in.

A magnet can be attached to your keys so it looks like a prox pass. No security guard is going to argue about the contents of your keyring.

I've had success with keeping (small) pocket knives on me. Those metal detectors are almost always badly tuned since false alarms are disruptive. I used to consider getting some kind of fancy thermoplastic pocket knife but frankly any cheap small knife works.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but then the US Air Force would not hire anyone shorter than 64 inches or taller than 77 inches. Your height is a part of your genetics, you can't change it. Why are people outside of this range not protected? Am I oversimplifying something here?

They are called bona fide occupational qualifications. Even a private business can discriminate against say, an actor who can’t play a particular role due to the race or gender of the character. Same goes with certain jobs that involve lifting or an expected level physical fitness.

Could you say that you need a white male bartender for your pub in rural Texas, because your customers are racist and sexist and anyone else would make them feel uncomfortable? Or would that "choice" be limited by the protected status?

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are called bona fide occupational qualifications. Even a private business can discriminate against say, an actor who can’t play a particular role due to the race or gender of the character. Same goes with certain jobs that involve lifting or an expected level physical fitness.

Could you say that you need a white male bartender for your pub in rural Texas, because your customers are racist and sexist and anyone else would make them feel uncomfortable? Or would that "choice" be limited by the protected status?

Race can never be a BFOQ except in the specific case of artistic works, due to the first amendment.
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