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The strange case of Britain’s demise

economist.com

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Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#291

Post by phatfish »

mjfl wrote: post #243
wpietri wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't a parliamentary system effectively proportional representation? Not necessarily. Imagine a country with four parties. In each constituency, they respectively get 40%, 30%, 20%, and 10% of the vote. Under FPTP, parliament is made up of all reps from the 40% party, shutting out other voters. Under PR, depending on variety you'd get results closer to the distribution of the votes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P…

But I don't think that's how it works? I think parliament works proportionally? See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingd... It is not the case that the conservative party got all the seats.

First past the post means that everyone who didn't vote for the "winner" is ignored. No representation in their democracy.

As the other comment said, a party can in theory get 100% of the seats/power with 51% of the vote.

FPTP was more relevant when local politics mattered and local MPs actually made a difference to lives in their local area.

Post-war the only decision making that matters is at the national level which FPTP cannot represent fairly.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#292

Post by TapWaterBandit »

cecida wrote: post #254

I'm based in Ireland, and travel regularly to both Britain and California with work. I've always been shocked with the poverty and sense of systemic decline I witness in San Fran. Visiting London and being part of the tech industry can insulate you from just how grim things are in large parts of Britain as well though. Not saying Ireland is some sort of utopia by any means, and we have our own enormous challenges wit…

Ireland's prosperity is built on a house of cards to do with low corporation taxes. I wouldn't be surprised if Ireland faces serious economic challenges and maybe even decline in coming years as governments are getting increasingly serious about not allowing corporations to only register profits in overseas jurisdictions with low tax rates.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#293

Post by culi »

VK538FY wrote: post #289
dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

I understand your point. 'First past the post' may not be ideal for your country. For other countries, it is appreciated despite its inconveniences. Example: Québec. We inherited 'first past the post' from England. The results are obvious: small parties with significant numbers of voters in many ridings don't end up in parliament. But Québec is a rural province with only one city worthy of the name, Montréal, almost…

I don't know if you've fully considered the alternatives here. Alternatives like Approval or even RCV (which admittedly has its own issues) don't at all weaken the rural vote here. Approval means all those rural parties can be voted for instead of having to be consolidated and also increases the chance that some city folk will vote for them. RCV allows rural people to vote for the longshot candidate they ACTUALLY want while making sure their vote isn't thrown away when their candidate does lose

This "balance" you're speaking of only benefits the duopoly that's developed BECAUSE of the FPTP system.

Organizations are like organisms. Organisms don't only have to replicate their DNA to be successful—they also need to replicate their environments (e.g. buffalo and elephants protected grasslands from being overrun by woodlands, pine forests making wildfires more common, etc). In this case these parties both have disproportionate power because of FPTP and are both interested in maintaining this "balance"

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#294

Post by phatfish »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #256
wazoox wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. In France Macron hold total power with less than 30% of voters and less than 30% of good opinion in polls. His "pension reform" has everyone against it, the unions, all political parties but his own, even the employers association, but it will be enforced anyway. Democracy is dead, and it even began to smell.

Curious to see what HN's opinion on mandatory voting is. We have that in Australia and the sense is that it tends to dull the extreme fringes of the party platforms since they need to broadly appeal to the mainstream.

Mandatory voting in a proportional representation electoral system feels like the best way to me. You can't force people to vote when their vote can end up worthless like with first past the post.

Not sure if you have PR or FPTP in Aus.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#295

Post by astrange »

rthalr wrote: post #77
revertmean wrote: post #55

There was a previous comment about the "native population" that is now marked dead that I wanted to respond to. The commentator really needs to read Defoe's "True Born Englishman". I offer a quote that is a little longer than the usual given: The silent nations undistinguished fall, And Englishman's the common name for all. Fate jumbled them together, God knows how; Whate'er they were, they're true-born English now.…

This poem from 1701 defends a foreign born king: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True-Born_Englishman It has nothing to do with multiple large ethnic groups that tend to cause tension in the long run, see Israel and Donbas for example.

You don't have any cultural power if you're worried about that. Let someone into America and they're eating cheeseburgers and driving a pickup truck in 5 years flat. It's impossible to avoid becoming an American.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#296

Post by grumpyprole »

akiselev wrote: post #208
aidos wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Uk had a referendum in 2011 to change the system and voted fairly conclusively to stick with first past the post. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternat...

That referendum was poison pilled with the “alternative vote” and sold to voters as a easy path to the BNP getting elected. It was just as much party politics as the Brexit vote, not a genuine attempt at direct democracy.

And also the adverts of sick babies who would not get the funding they needed if the money was spent on implementating proportional representation. A similar lie was used to sell Brexit.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#297

Post by astrange »

908B64B197 wrote: post #184
bsnnkv wrote: post #10

I recently posted some of my feelings related to watching the UK post-2019 from the US as a Brit that left as part of the ongoing brain drain.[1] I received my Green Card since that post and I've booked my flights for a visit to the UK for early next year. Mostly I just want to share how sad reading this article made me feel this morning. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33682030

Post 2016 the messaging from most commonwealth countries (UK, Canada, Australia) seemed to be that they were going to be the ones bennefiting from a brain drain of americans leaving the country. Canada was supposed to become an "AI Superpower" and Universities in the UK were supposed to be where innovation was going to happen next due to the perceived hostility of the United States to foreing talent. I recall someone…

I've mainly seen Canada be used to park people there who can't immigrate to the US because the system for that is too backed up. Being in the same timezone as SV is pretty helpful for collaboration.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#298

Post by astrange »

notahacker wrote: post #124
hermitcrab wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be weird if Ukraine didn't have any neo-Nazis, given that pretty much every other European country does.

Speaking of weird, I don't think there's a single person banging on about how the presence of neo-Nazis in Ukraine justified the invasion that wouldn't have enthusiastically defended the actual Nazis in the 1930s...

Some people are just confused by what comes out of Russia, because when Russians say "Nazis" they mean "enemies of Russia". They don't care about the anti-Semitism or anything; Russians are also anti-Semitic and didn't bother learning about the Holocaust. They just remember WW2 as that time Germany attacked them. So it's perfectly straightforward that Ukrainian Jewish people like Zelensky are also Nazis.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#299

Post by 6547586970 »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #256
wazoox wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. In France Macron hold total power with less than 30% of voters and less than 30% of good opinion in polls. His "pension reform" has everyone against it, the unions, all political parties but his own, even the employers association, but it will be enforced anyway. Democracy is dead, and it even began to smell.

Curious to see what HN's opinion on mandatory voting is. We have that in Australia and the sense is that it tends to dull the extreme fringes of the party platforms since they need to broadly appeal to the mainstream.

I'm always going to be against adding more force and coercion. People are way too quick to reach for that as a solution to every purported problem.

I also think many of the people who are forced to vote will do so with the least effort possible and will keep voting for the same party they (and probably their parents) have always voted for without thinking too much about it or doing any research.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#300

Post by 8note »

Adverblessly wrote: post #260
dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

Here in Israel with proportional representation, every small party has outsized power since every one of them has enough power to vote down the current government by joining hands with the opposition. As a result, decisions that are undesirable by the majority are consistently made. We are currently after an election but before forming a new government and as part of the coalition negotiations the upcoming government…

The majority can be struck down by a group of minorities? Or the plurality?
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