Earlier quoted context omitted.
Microsoft takes years to develop their own version of rosetta after the fail of Windows rt. And I think you are already able to use it now, you can already run x86 on Windows on arm vm on mac(m1). Just wondering the performance when running it on the dev kit they sell now.
You can run a self-contained x86 application and self-contained ARM applications, but you can’t integrate between ARM applications and x86 in-process components (DLLs etc.), and such integration is how a lot of things work in practice on Windows. Converting an x86 application to ARM means losing those integrations, and that is a major hurdle to adoption.
Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra
291–300 of 567 posts
Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think another considerable difference is that Windows global footprint is 10x that of MacOS, so Microsoft has to keep both backwards compatibility and OEM's production plans in mind. There is nothing for people to believe or not believe. MS cannot cannot discontinue x86 overnight because their OS is used by a much larger proportion of the world.
> There is nothing for people to believe or not believe. MS cannot cannot discontinue x86 overnight because their OS is used by a much larger proportion of the world. Apple managed a competent compatibility layer, albeit with some special sauce in the SOC to make it fast. Is that too much to ask from Microsoft?
Yes, maybe it is too much to ask.
Windows is a general purpose OS, which is why it dominates two enormous markets: business software and games software. Microsoft will usually err on the side of developers because of this. The two companies' philosophies will of course be different.
If MacOS had similar mindshare in those markets, Mac developers would probably ask Apple to avoid overnight changes like the discontinuation of x86 Macs.
MS still provides security updates for Windows 7 despite its EOL occurring nearly 3 years ago. This is because many organizations still run critical software that they cannot shift away from, for whatever reason. Apple doesn't have to do that because no hospital or airport is running their logistics on MacOS.
Even with all this baggage, Windows on ARM has been available in some form since 2012's Surface RT.
Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra
#293Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apple's ace card is that they bought PA Semi and have a competent team to pull off what Qualcomm apparently can't.
Well, the Nuvia acquisition seems to indicate that at least Qualcomm wants to . might be some generations before we see their designs.
Except for the fact ARM is suing them to prevent using any of the Nuvia tech in their chips, since the license terms with ARM didn't convey with the purchase.
There is a good chance they get on the verge of shipping and find they can't actually sell any of their new chips...
https://www.axios.com/2022/09/06/arm-qualcomm-nuvia-chip-gia...
Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra
#294At this price, with that HW, they are either delusional, or they have to pay insane fees to Qualcomm, they should have built their own silicon
That's what decades are poor management gets you, you late to the party with expired food
Apple was smarter when they came up with their M1; with an aggressive pricing and excellent performance/watt
Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra
#295Honestly, if Apple were to care, they could undo the course of computing history where at one point Windows became the monopoly.
Launch a 500$ category laptop, say 3 gens old. That would soon be M1. Won't be very profitable, but a direct competitor to the typical crappy Windows low-end laptop.
Yet it's so much better in performance, security, battery life, total lifespan, etc. Double down on making it idiot-proof. Optimize the onboarding experience for ex-Windows users, including prominent placement of alternatives for popular W32 software. Make sure Office works well, and so on.
I would admit that it would take many years to make a dent, but there's no rush to it. Windows seems a sitting duck. Nobody, including Microsoft, seems to care about it.
Edit: oh yes, forgot about gaming.
Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra
#296Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd wait to hear if this board has Linux support. It might have a locked bootloader.
Specs seem to list UEFI Secure Boot, which has been unlockable on all of Microsoft's Surface devices and previous ARM outings. Shipping this with a locked bootloader would be one hell of a breach from tradition (and probably undermine it's usefulness as a dev box anyways). Regardless, the internal SOC is the same as the new ARM Thinkpad which also shipped with an unlocked bootloader. Pretty much everything suggests t…
> Specs seem to list UEFI Secure Boot, which has been unlockable on all of Microsoft's Surface devices and previous ARM outings
That doesn't quite seem accurate.
For one example: https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/15/windows_fix_closes_rt...
Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra
#297The difference here is that the M1 in the M1 mac mini is faster than Apple's phone SoC (the A16). The Qualcomm 8cx gen 3 (what a terrible name) in this machine is NOT faster than even Qualcomm's phone SoC (the 8 gen 1), let alone Apple's phone SoC. It's absurd to be selling a desktop PC that's weaker than a phone.
This Qualcom chip is very similar to the Microsoft SQ3 that is available in the new Surface Pro 9.
Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra
#298Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are Windows ARM laptops already, and their existence does a lot to justify that hesitancy.
Of course Qualcomm being chronically incapable of making fast CPUs doesn't help, but partly it's just a chicken-egg problem of lack of ARM-optimized Windows software caused by the lack of ARM Windows users. Having a decent devkit may help bring more native ARM software, which may make these underpowered machines struggle less with speed and compatibility.
Genuinely asking because I don't know. Is there anything that's better about ARM or is the Apple/TSMC being better than Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Samsung, et. al.?
Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra
#299Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra
#300Earlier quoted context omitted.
From what MS says you cannot do it out of the box.
You'll need to wait a bit until a new device tree comes for these devices. Given that support for the ThinkPad X13s with the same SoC is coming along... going to happen pretty soon.
For others similarly interested, it turns out "X13s" is not "multiple X13 models" but rather "X13s" is the model number: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx/th... and is currently listed at USD$995 for "Gen 1" and all the way up to USD$1570 for the high end