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Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

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Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#291
post #252
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. And the acquisitions... I've had countless minecraft sessions ruined because of microsoft account / store issues. Don't even get me started on realms and the chat policing bulls…

> Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. It's even worse. I want to open Notepad++ and begin to type N -> notepad.exe No -> notepad.exe Not -> Notepad++ Note -> notepad.exe Notep -> Notepad++ Notepa -> Notepad++ Notepad -> notepad.exe The times I actually wanted to open notepad.exe is exactly 0 but the stupid algorithm sees me mistakenly opening notepad.exe…

At least you guys have software conflicts. I try to run "runemacs.exe" (I have no idea how you're supposed to run Emacs on Windows, but that's what I do), and it's:

R -> "R, the project for statistical computing" (fair I suppose)

Ru -> Run (what is "run"? It's that little dialog box from Windows 3.1 where you can type in an executable to run)

Run -> Run

Rune -> RuneScape (not something I have installed)

Runem -> Some Hearthstone game file

Runemac -> Search results for "run amok".

Runemacs -> Hey the thing!

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#292
> Google’s president of global affairs Kent Walker said that potential antitrust regulations "would impose one set of rules on American companies while giving a pass to foreign companies" and that they "would give the Federal Trade Commission and other government agencies unprecedented power over the design of consumer products". Walker added: "All of this would be a dramatic reversal of the approach that has made the U.S. a global technology leader, and risks ceding America’s technology leadership and threatening our national security, as bipartisan national security experts have warned".

What. That must be the most ridiculous excuse I've heard so far.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#293

Mozilla can bitch all they want, but as long as they continue to ship a shitty product nobody will heed them attention.

It's not shitty, it's just not the best in the world. Same way everyone in a sport except the world champion isn't shitty.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#294
post #252
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. And the acquisitions... I've had countless minecraft sessions ruined because of microsoft account / store issues. Don't even get me started on realms and the chat policing bulls…

> Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. It's even worse. I want to open Notepad++ and begin to type N -> notepad.exe No -> notepad.exe Not -> Notepad++ Note -> notepad.exe Notep -> Notepad++ Notepa -> Notepad++ Notepad -> notepad.exe The times I actually wanted to open notepad.exe is exactly 0 but the stupid algorithm sees me mistakenly opening notepad.exe…

I had the same dance with Google search for a while with their top result for “tsplayground”.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#295
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. It's even worse. I want to open Notepad++ and begin to type N -> notepad.exe No -> notepad.exe Not -> Notepad++ Note -> notepad.exe Notep -> Notepad++ Notepa -> Notepad++ Notepad -> notepad.exe The times I actually wanted to open notepad.exe is exactly 0 but the stupid algorithm sees me mistakenly opening notepad.exe…

Ugh, Apple is guilty of this too in spotlight search. Actually worse, because it randomly changes after maybe 500ms, randomly, after typing a character, sometimes. N -> OneNote.app -> Then (maybe) quickly changes to Notes No -> Notes.app -> Then (maybe) changes to OneNote Not -> OneNote.app Note -> Notes.app etc

That one is at least malleable. Suffer through invalid suggestions, wait, select the one you need, and after 10 or so attempts it finally learns that you always want that particular app as your first choice.

At least that's how it was before. I wouldn't be surprised if they broke it.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#296
post #110
post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

Its not really a game of cat and mouse. Law enforcement can seek penalties sufficient to prevent the behavior from proliferating.

And lobbyist groups can prevent, that those fines are too heavy.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#297
Late to the party but Microsoft's arguments fall flat for me, at least with regards to Apple and Google, moreso Apple but can give Google _some_ credit on this one.

Neither "forces" their respective browser in the same way that Microsoft does. Putting iOS aside for a minute to be addressed later, on an Apple device, the number of times you will get a pop-up telling you how insecure and slow and bad other browsers are is practically 0. Apple has the MacOS spam banner, but either they've toned it down or walked it back completely based on my experience purchasing an M1 this year. Never did Apple try to make you use Safari as your PDF reader, it doesn't change or add shortcuts for Safari on updates, it doesn't insert a banner on other apps or locations to tell you to use Safari, changing your default browser is as simple as opening System Preference and searching "default browser", then picking another one, and MacOS doesn't say a word about it. Spotlight is the one place that might surprise people but even it respects changing the default browser and will search on your set one.

Google, as annoying as it is, also doesn't seem to care much which browser you use on Android; I don't own a ChromeOS device so no idea what it's like on that, but you're free to install just about anything and set it as default without so much as a hiccup, and similar to Apple, I have not seen it try to set itself via other common OS features. Granted, Google is a dick with Chrome in many other ways (other commenters have already noted how they use their control of the web to force Chrome), but I don't quite put it in the same way.

iOS is special I guess in that you can install any browser "skin" you want, but it's webkit underneath. I'm mixed on this as I understand the arguments against this and it's definitely not good on Apple, but at the same time, if you're talking about what browser to use to get the features like sync, iOS lets you do it without a peep from iOS about it and for the grand majority of users, the rendering engine isn't what they care about, it's the other features of the browser which you can happily use. Still not good you can't use another engine, but I would still put it in the "okay, but needs improvement" area.

All of this compared to how Microsoft handles Edge on Windows is a pittance. They really want you using Edge for everything, and there are so many system hooks that open Edge without you wanting it to. Changing the default is much more daunting, and it's far too easy to let it get set back (in general I've noticed Windows has some weird stuff about default applications in Win11. It might just be the release we use for our lab environments, but it refuses to let me set notepad++ as default text editor without resorting to the command line, but it could be just a strange situation).

I have a hard time seeing this as anything but Microsoft muddying the waters with such arguments and I definitely don't see them as good faith. I suppose it's just good business sense that they don't try to tie Azure features/performance to "best viewed in Edge" as I imagine an exodus towards AWS/GCP, but for the mythical average user, they do a lot to get you onto Edge no matter what you actually want.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#298
post #252
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. And the acquisitions... I've had countless minecraft sessions ruined because of microsoft account / store issues. Don't even get me started on realms and the chat policing bulls…

> Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. It's even worse. I want to open Notepad++ and begin to type N -> notepad.exe No -> notepad.exe Not -> Notepad++ Note -> notepad.exe Notep -> Notepad++ Notepa -> Notepad++ Notepad -> notepad.exe The times I actually wanted to open notepad.exe is exactly 0 but the stupid algorithm sees me mistakenly opening notepad.exe…

Can you just replace notepad.exe with a link to notepad++?

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#299
post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

> I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. It's a system app. You also didn't explicitly install the TV app yet here we are. Settings -> Passwords -> Password Options -> uncheck iCloud Passwords & Keychain

When looking for it I went to Settings -> Safari -> Autofill which I’d expect to have it’s own setting for this.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess if you define "forced" as "completely 100% impossible to avoid or prevent" then yes. But I think it's reasonable to say that "forced" is acceptable shorthand for "coerced by dark patterns in such a way that 99% of actual users will end up doing what the vendor wants whether they want to or not".

You get prompted once on Windows unless you use Edge again. I don't think that would be considered force either. Force would be like a prompt on every reboot or whenever you opened Firefox.

On windows searching from windows search box opens edge, not the default browser. Edge is advertised in the start menu. Etc.
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