Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B • Hacker News Board

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#291

Post by wvenable » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 5:35 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #282

wvenable wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not clear on what you want? There are two mobile operating systems, do you want some company to make another one? What is stopping them?

Anticompetitive practices are stopping them. That’s the point of these fines. Google controls the predominant non-Chinese marketplace for apps that are compatible with android-based operating systems, and they use it as a hostage to force other device manufacturers to arbitrarily force other google products upon their uses, for the purpose of unfairly expanding their market dominance.

Isn't that a whole other level though? Google is being asked to stop forcing distribution of their software so other Android software can compete.

Either way, you're still going to have 2 operating systems: Android and iOS.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#292

Post by antonymy » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

babelfish wrote: post #288

antonymy wrote: post #280

The fallout from this should be interesting. This fine is a substantial part (roughly 25%!) of Google's overall revenue from the EMEA region (Europe, Middle East, Africa), of which the EU is probably like 90%, at least, of the total, so it's probably toing the line of actually making the EU unprofitable to Google considering the costs of future compliance to avoid being fined again. Worse: this was not as steep as th…

To be clear, while the fines might make operating in the EU unprofitable, they could just...follow EU regulations...and remain profitable, albeit at a likely lower margin

That's probably the goal, but Google is probably going to have anxiety about getting fined again if their compliance is not enough. Except in this case, the fines are so steep that it'd be very hard to over-spend on compliance. But it's just a race to the bottom in any case, Google only stands to make less and less money in the EU from now on.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#293

Post by origin_path » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 5:37 PM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #31

yieldcrv wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

probably 15-20% of annual revenue its psychology, the board or ceo would react preemptively based on the idea that shareholders would react on their behalf shareholders (if they have voting power at all) would react for the same result at higher fine amounts than that

Speculation - google would want to operate in the EU even at a loss: 1. Other search engines regularly appearing in news / on screens would remind the non-EU users about alternatives. 2. Lost traffic is lost information. Google still relies on knowing your behaviour to improve targeting. 3. Giving a whole region to other search engines would build up their financial standing and they could threaten Google in other re…

Very unlikely - the EU has proven it cannot build a Google competitor worth a damn. Instead what would happen is that Google would have no corporate presence here but the website would still be accessible, and people would just continue using it as normal but with fewer local customizations and the only ads they'd see would be from American firms, or from European firms that buy ads via American subsidiaries / brokers.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#294

Post by ocdtrekkie » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 5:37 PM UTC

antonymy wrote: post #280

The fallout from this should be interesting. This fine is a substantial part (roughly 25%!) of Google's overall revenue from the EMEA region (Europe, Middle East, Africa), of which the EU is probably like 90%, at least, of the total, so it's probably toing the line of actually making the EU unprofitable to Google considering the costs of future compliance to avoid being fined again. Worse: this was not as steep as th…

Bear in mind a global company like Google would much rather operate in the EU in the red than pull out. Simply because Google only survives on being a monopoly, and leaving one of the biggest global markets makes too much room for a competitor to develop that can eventually challenge them across the world.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#295

Post by ncmncm » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 5:37 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #268

ncmncm wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is for courts, but it should be enough to produce correct behavior by eliminating incentive to violate. If the fine is too small, it becomes operating expense, as is usual in the US. Probably any fine should accompany (but not depend on results from) criminal charges for a company officer.

So you believe Google made more than $4B with their Android licensing practices in the EU? I think that is unlikely, and I think it is likely we will see Google change the illegal licensing. I am more than happy to see a Google exec get charged for a crime if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they committed that crime.

If it takes a $4B fine to get Google to behave, then a $4B fine is the right amount, regardless of revenue. Revenue hints at the fine that would get their attention.

We charge people with a crime to see if their part in it can be proved. Second-guessing the court produces often bad results.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#296

Post by pvarangot » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

Normille wrote: post #70

Cool. The EU does have its [many!] faults. But they have a pretty good track record when it comes to consumer rights and consumer choice. Next up I'd like to see them do the same for the plethora of incompatible cordless power-tool systems out there as they did with insisting all mobile phones standardise on a USB connector.

No post body was provided.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#297

Post by Tuna-Fish » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 5:39 PM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #228

nilsbunger wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#2 is the same thing Microsoft got busted for by US antitrust in the late 90s. Microsoft had required computer vendors to NOT sell computers with other OSes (eg Linux). At one point they insisted computer vendors pay for a Windows license on all computers they shipped, even ones shipped without Windows.

Is it? My reading of #2 suggests Google just didn't want phones with ancient or beta versions of Android in the market with Google branding. Fairly reasonable demand, if you ask me. #1 is right up the alley that busted Microsoft, though.

Requiring that someone cannot use Google branding on a phone with an ancient version of Android is legal.

Requiring that someone cannot use Google branding on any device they manufacture or sell, if they also manufacture or sell devices without Google branding that use ancient versions of Android, is entirely illegal in the EU.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#298

Post by twobitshifter » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #179

moffkalast wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android should damn well ship with multiple app stores and multiple browsers, not just the GoogleApprovedTM app store where they ban anyone that looks at them wrong or thinks about blocking ads for more than 2 miliseconds. The exclusive app stores are both iOS and Android's greatest strengths and failings at the same time. Apple is arguably the far worse offender there too. If there was an alternative app store on iO…

The way this EU ruling is setup, they want your Android not only ship with other stores, but allow sales with exclusively those stores as well. Just like the case with Chinese phones now - I have bunch of people in my family angry because they bought Huawei and they now can't use their banking apps because it's an incompatible build of Android that requires publishing in a Huawei AppStore to work. That's worse. That'…

Incompatible isn’t the right word for it. The banking app could run on the Huawei phone, but they’re relying on google to certify the device through the play store.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#299

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

moffkalast wrote: post #167

mdrzn wrote: post #33

Yesss! EU is doing its job. I'm very happy every time they manage to give a slap on the wrist of these monopolies

Wrist slaps are getting slightly stronger though!

[deleted]

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#300

Post by dagaci » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 5:42 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #202

gwerbret wrote: post #170

A summary of the original findings by the European Commission (1): "By decision of 18 July 2018, the Commission fined Google for having abused its dominant position by imposing anticompetitive contractual restrictions on manufacturers of mobile devices and on mobile network operators, in some cases since 1 January 2011. Three types of restriction were identified: 1. those contained in ‘distribution agreements’, requi…

The irony is that if Google had not licensed Android and only manufactured its own devices, like Apple does, it could restrict consumer options much more harshly without EU fines and restrictions.

This is true, but the case for the acceptance of Android in the Market was that its was and open-platform and open-source. This is what gave it legs despite its early questionable software and hardware merits (the mantra being that you can fix it yourself!). The slow moving EU, a decade++ later is on target from this point of view. ....