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Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

thenewhumanitarian.org

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Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#291

Post by smsm42 »

greenthrow wrote: post #159

This is not talking about bogus "my freedoms" claims of people being kicked off Twitter, it's talking about actual loss of freedom of expression, where the government imprisons people for saying the wrong things. In the US we have loss sight of what real freedom of expression means.

If the government "asks" private companies to shut you up - it's better than being jailed or shot by the same government, but the former is an attack on freedom of expression nevertheless.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#292

Post by smsm42 »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #216
thfuran wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting kicked off social media is essentially having your ability to engage in public discourse removed, or at least severely restricted.

That's absolute nonsense. Social media platforms are PRIVATE forums. Public discourse is getting up on your soap box and speaking directly to people, or engaging city council meetings and various public boards, or talking to your representatives and communicating with various leaders via mail and email. THAT is what public discourse is, and absolutely none of it is affected due to decisions by Facebook or Twitter or…

Private forums, but with the government having the power to exclude anybody they dislike from 90% of these forums. That's not the way public discourse should be held in a democracy.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#293

Post by smsm42 »

ben_w wrote: post #192
rascul wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know any specific examples off the top of my head but I'm fairly sure that's true for the US as well. The bar might be higher, though.

Executed, even: https://daily.jstor.org/sentenced-to-death-and-other-tales-f...

Tbh, in this case there was also a small matter of armed robbery and felony murder involved.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#294

Post by Blackstrat »

Fatnino wrote: post #284
Blackstrat wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a retiree, I'm older than most here, and can attest to the fact that the freedom of expression in the United States is suppressed to a greater degree than at anytime in my lifetime. And it's only getting worse. To accept censorship on Big Tech platforms, e.g., Facebook & Twitter because they are "private companies", is to ignore revelations over the recent years of working in concert with offices of the federal go…

You fit the stereotype quite well

Stereotype?

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#295

Post by smsm42 »

greenthrow wrote: post #159

This is not talking about bogus "my freedoms" claims of people being kicked off Twitter, it's talking about actual loss of freedom of expression, where the government imprisons people for saying the wrong things. In the US we have loss sight of what real freedom of expression means.

No, we haven't. We just didn't lose all the freedom of expression yet. But if we stay silent while the federal government "gently leans" on every major venue of discussion to exclude dissenting voices and everybody who really disagrees with the government - then when the government decides the time has come to be less gentle, and eliminate with force what they couldn't eliminate with covert pressure - the battle would be much, much harder. People in the US have a good position in the fight for their freedoms. If they give it up because "we haven't lost all our freedoms yet, just a little bit of them" then when the bit becomes bigger the position would be much worse - because we assented to the smaller infringements and gave up our good position.

Tyranny rarely starts with take-all power grab. It's usually small, "common sense" little things, that establish the basis for more and more power grabs, until the framework is ready for the final strike. This is how it happened in Germany, this is how it happened more recently in Russia. One day you wake up and discover that one of those "extremists", "foreign agents" and "domestic terrorists" that you and everybody else agreed need to be suppressed for the common good - is you. How could that happen?!

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#297

Post by Blackstrat »

Fatnino wrote: post #296
Blackstrat wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stereotype?

The stereotype that older people lean conservative.

What I wrote was not conservative. It was just reality. Having been educated at a time when schools/colleges still taught and not indoctrinate, I passed by college biology course. I've read histories of the rise of the Third Reich, for example. I worked with people from all over the world, many escapees from brutal, communist regimes, e.g., the Soviet Union, Cuba, et al. Based on my education and experience, I don't buy into every stupid, little virtue signaling scheme folks come up with these days. Some here still do. They think it makes them more compassionate, more understanding, etc. It gives their lives meaning, whether it's "gender identity", climate change, or EVs. It doesn't. It simply makes them useful idiots, a tool of the ever expanding socialist state.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#298

Post by leaflets2 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #182
leaflets2 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where Popper drew the line. When a side replies with fists or guns No, here's his line: > we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal That's before fists and guns, at an earlier stage. It's before the nazis invaded Poland, not after. ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance , the Discussion section) Apparently he knew that after, can be too late

Longer quote: > In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on…

(I like that you (re)read and quoted his longer quote :-))

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#299

Post by jessaustin »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #182
leaflets2 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where Popper drew the line. When a side replies with fists or guns No, here's his line: > we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal That's before fists and guns, at an earlier stage. It's before the nazis invaded Poland, not after. ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance , the Discussion section) Apparently he knew that after, can be too late

Longer quote: > In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on…

My reading of that is that some such advocacy is "across the line". Which is which, is a purely practical judgment. A youtube rando with no IRL power would not concern Popper no matter what she said, while someone like Hitler leading a party of fascists obviously would even if he spoke mostly in dog whistles. Drawing the line requires judgment, not an attitude of "it is society's right to crush those it deems intolerant and society will always exercise that right especially if it makes a military contractor a bit more profit". As we see ITT, Popper was wrong, because authoritarians will often demand that the state exercise such "rights" to the fullest extent.

I think maybe Libya war cheerleaders like B-HL must not have read that last sentence in the quote too carefully.

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