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Remote startups will win the war for top talent

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Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#291
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communications and collaboration is very important. However, "socializing" through Slack is simply just not the same as going out to lunch with a coworker, for example. Permanent remote work has a very detached feel to it, at least for me.

I don't get this. If you have a coworker that enjoy having lunch with you... what's stopping you both doing so? I mean, even if you both work from home, you could still schedule a lunch together in the city, right? If you both live in different cities, well, I guess before COVID you weren't having lunch together that frequently. 100% remote doesn't dictate how (or with who) you eat lunch.

> If you have a coworker that enjoy having lunch with you... what's stopping you both doing so?

The fact that I don't even live in the same state or country as them anymore? When you hire people locally, you can exist in the same physical space as them. When you hire people remotely, and work for a remote startup, this isn't possible. I don't understand your question.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughout my career it's been my experience that the type of people you describe are never the top performers, and seldom average performers. The ones craving social interactions often are just looking for distractions (like spending too long at the water cooler chatting) cause either they hate their job, hate the work, can't do the actual work or view work (exchange of labour/time for money) as a predominantly soci…

That has been nearly the exact opposite of my experience. As one advisor put it: researchers who prefer to keep their door closed often publish more papers over the course of a year, but researchers who keep their door open often publish more impactful research over the course of their lifetime.

That statement about open vs closed door was commonly used to justify open plan offices. Now it is being repurposed to justify in-office work in general. Interesting.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yes, this is a me thing, but it's also always been a me thing I feel like picking jobs off of a desire to live a social life and feel like part of a community is extremely normal and valid. Remote work is essentially accepting that the primary way you'll engage with your colleagues and labor is through a screen, and that is an uncomfortable feeling (to some people at least)

Funny, I have always seen “work as community” to offer an illusory connection at best. At its worst it is exploited by employers. My coworkers are my colleagues. I don’t mind sharing a beer with them once in a while, but apart from “work” we have different interests, values, and experiences. That doesn’t lead to community, it leads to having acquaintances. And if you doubt that, ask yourself how many of your “work fr…

> ask yourself how many of your “work friends” from a job you’ve had more than a year ago do you still interact with?

I still interact a lot with people I was on a team with >1 yr ago – the ones I met before we went remote. Can't say the same about the ones I was never in the office with, even though they seem like equally good people.

> but apart from “work” we have different interests, values, and experiences. That doesn’t lead to community, it leads to having acquaintances.

It has not been my experience that "community" arises particularly from this kind of homogeneity.

I'm also kind of curious what you mean by "parasocial" outside of the context of media.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#294
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if those personality differences get considered when they throw everyone into a single room with a few low cubicle walls. I wonder if the market gives a shit about being fair to those who have personalities that thrive in said cubicles. Thirdly, I wonder if those who thrive in remote give a shit about being fair after having dealt with cubicle farms for so many years.

That's entirely unfair. The ability to do most of these jobs remote wasn't even really possible until a decade ago, and interia of in office work kept it that way for most existing enterprises. Yet still, plenty of startups in 2019 chose to be remote, and plenty chose to be in person. Also I would bet that the amount of people who prefer remote has gone up drastically since 2019, both due to exposure to it, and due t…

AS my grand father would tell you, who retired from AT&T in the early 90s. The "telephone company" had the ability for pretty much every employee to be remote except for field techs and sales people in the 80s. And he in fact had people he worked with who were 100% remote in the 80s. Field tech, because that is obvious. Sales because when he sold a large contract, he was expected to supervise the install, and he wanted to. Before he entered sales he was a field tech, or "telephone pole climber" in his words.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#295
post #53

I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. It's difficult because people aren't putting thought into it. At my last big-co job the leadership just kept waiting for 'covid to be over' and not improving our remote work culture. Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. My company is fully remote, we embraced the GitLab model…

> Meanwhile we have had no problem sourcing candidates since we can pull from anywhere in the world, we have some incredible people all over the world that we would not have gotten otherwise. How do you handle taxes ? For example in Europe a German company can't hire a French dev if the german company doesn't have a legal entity in France, it quickly gets out of control both in term of paperwork and cost. The dev can…

I work for an Italian nonprofit from the US, after I moved back from Italy for family reasons. I'm a full-time contractor. I (or my 'employer') have to prove to the Italian government that I am a US taxpayer, but beyond that it's fine, and at least from my perspective much easier than dealing with the Italian government otherwise (those who know the language and system may feel different of course). I am very happy not to be throwing a huge chunk of my paycheck into the Italian pension system since I have never intended to retire in Italy, so it was simply a gift to the government of those lovely people.

I'm not sure how much variability there is with this kind of setup within EU member countries.

Also let's say you have an American company with 200 german employees but no office on german soil, does that mean they don't pay any local tax because technically they don't operate their business in the country ?

The American perspective on this is that the employer pays employment taxes for their employees (but not contractors), and the employees/contractors are responsible for their own income taxes, wherever they work (US or abroad). Surely the German employees would report and pay their income tax?

Taxes are not a tithe to the Church. They are not a moral obligation. They are a payment for past, present and future government services. If you (or your family) are not receiving services from that government, then you shouldn't be obligated to pay them. Pay for the services from your own government.

It is good to question how much of the tax burden should be paid by employers vs. employees, but the idea that some tax burden is split by different parties in different nations is not a new one. For example, international trade has been occurring for as long as nations have existed. There is no shortage of precedent to draw from.

The dev can't be a freelancer because a freelancer with a full time, fixed hours, single customer is illegal in many places

This might actually be what may changes rather than the 'closing of loopholes'. From what I have understood after talking with German in-laws, these laws are nominally to prevent the abuse of workers who are denied the rights and benefits of full employment. From a workers' rights perspective, this makes sense for 20th C. laborers, but not really for 21st century knowledge workers who could be getting paid >2x working from Germany for an American company compared to what they would be able to get working domestically. So in practice, this type of law can keep wages lower and give more control to German companies at the expense of the workers, so you know who will fight the changes to the laws to preserve the status quo. But if tech/knowledge workers who wish to have better remote employment opportunities can band together to pressure their elected officials, then this could change.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#297
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if those personality differences get considered when they throw everyone into a single room with a few low cubicle walls. I wonder if the market gives a shit about being fair to those who have personalities that thrive in said cubicles. Thirdly, I wonder if those who thrive in remote give a shit about being fair after having dealt with cubicle farms for so many years.

That's entirely unfair. The ability to do most of these jobs remote wasn't even really possible until a decade ago, and interia of in office work kept it that way for most existing enterprises. Yet still, plenty of startups in 2019 chose to be remote, and plenty chose to be in person. Also I would bet that the amount of people who prefer remote has gone up drastically since 2019, both due to exposure to it, and due t…

I think you make a reasonable point, but I'll also echo some replies that remote work has absolutely been a possibility for many industries for much longer than a decade. I've been working 100% remotely for 21 years, and some of the people I was learning from in the beginning had already been working remotely for years before me.

That said, I've been a professional programmer for all that time, which in my mind is practically made for working remotely. It's definitely taken longer for some other industries to be as amenable, which I believe has been due to the people in charge, not the profession.

I agree that general inertia has something to do with it, but that's a terrible reason to accept the way things are.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling to find the bit where I demand all the remote-first or hybrid companies changes their ways and conform to my preferences. No, I'm looking for companies that fit my preferences. Which is making my job search much harder, but I know what I need.

Right, but the louder opinions like yours are, and these are the ones that surface most in the public debate and wrapped in some good-for-productivity ideas, the more fuel it adds to the fire of moving everyone back in office.

Louder opinions like mine? In all the places i've seen remote work discussed, I've been made to feel like my preference is a distinct minority -- to the point of feeling like the preference itself is being erased from the discourse.

If your experiences are different, I'm sorry for that, the last thing I want portray remote as an invalid preference. But when the topic comes up, I'm not going to sit on mute if it feels like my preference isn't getting any airtime.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#300
post #141

I've been working 100% remotely for about 6.5 years now. Overall I love it. However, there are very real drawbacks that have taken me awhile to fully realize. For me, the primary one is that it's _way_ too easy for everyone to get deeply frustrated with each other. Social interactions and chit-chat lead to a better understanding of people and a more accurate mental model of what people actually mean when they say som…

I remember the epics fights I would get into with my online irc buddies when I was a youngun

Remote work is not a panacea, there are tradeoffs. Investing more effort into building remote relationships is definitely worth working at home and not having to commute.

Excellent insight.

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