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Part of my code makes Copilot crash

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Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#291

Post by throwaway290 »

mlyle wrote: post #280
throwaway290 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding calling Romani Romani, this can be a touchy subject, just as a heads-up. For years being asked where I'm from or being referred to as Russian, even without me present (e.g., I overheard or inferred people discussed this), made me uncomfortable. It's fading recently only because of the war and the overt hatred directed at me by nationality online making me more confrontational about it. I observe this happen…

I'm sorry that you've had to face prejudice. But hopefully a whole lot of discussion about your origin is more about idle curiosity than judgment. (And if you don't really want to talk about it, that's understandable and fine, too). There's nothing wrong with being Russian. (Supporting Russia's position in the war, whether you're Russian or not, though... someone can have a problem with that). We're all enriched when…

Thanks for warm words. I can't imagine sharing Russian government's position on this war (whatever they call it), and I'm ashamed I hadn't caught on and started working towards another citizenship earlier as it's been happening since 2014 really.

Honestly, the most awkward IRL nationality-related interactions for me now is when non-Russians express support for whatever Russian government does. Feels like they'd expect me to be pleased but I have to reject sympathy on those grounds.

(That said, to reiterate my on-topic point, the discomfort I used to feel when nationality was discussed went on for years before this all started/before I was aware that this was going on, and was not tied to specific government's actions.)

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#292

Post by xupybd »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #274
xupybd wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a safe version of gender. Grammatical gender is, for now, binary and as far as I'm aware not offensive to most. But I agree you can't avoid offending people. The world is nuts everything is offensive to someone.

Grammatical gender is not as simple/uniform as you state https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_type_of...

Thank you, I stand corrected.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#293

Post by TheDong »

gloosx wrote: post #284
fny wrote: post #122

So I've just tested it, and I can confirm, yes, copilot refuses to give suggestions related to gender. Now I know a lot of people are calling this absurd, but looking more closely, there are two PR nightmare scenarios. 1. Copilot makes a suggestion that implies gender is binary, a certain community explodes with anger and an entire news hype cycle starts about how Microsoft is enforcing views on gender with code. 2.…

It's a total nonsense, how can someone be angry at a soulless machine? Is it a real thing to face anger towards an AI like it was a real human? It's a serious mental problem then, cause the anger is actually directed inward in this case

The anger is clearly not at the "soulless machine", but at the people and corporation that built, trained, and tend to it. The parent comment did not say "the community explodes with anger [at copilot]", they just said "with anger".

You have made up a total strawman. It is like if someone said "If that person were stabbed with a knife, they would be angry", and you responded "Do people really get angry at emotionless knives? That's a mental problem, their anger is directed inward".

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#294

Post by eproxus »

captainmuon wrote: post #255
mlyle wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, I don't think, e.g. being able to handle black faces correctly is some sort of massive ideological commitment. So let's not pretend that the entire concern of bias in AI is irrelevant, no matter where you stand on gender. > conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments You know-- let's just talk about basic respect and dignity: if someone strongly wants to…

Detecting black faces correctly is one thing; obviously if a system can't do that it's an issue and it shows that the people making the system were biased. But something like Copilot or DALL-E? If you ask DALL-E for a doctor and it rarely shows black people (or women), then it is neither racist nor broken. Our society is broken. There are not enough people in that job that are not white and male. Or they are not repr…

But it’s also about how you get there. If you only expose kids to pictures of white male doctors you’re going to give them a bias which will shape their lives and by extension the society around them.

I think techno libertarian suggestions like these are dangerous because they assume there’s one “canonical” place to fix these issues and all other places can just reflect the status quo, without affecting it (which in my opinion is not possible).

It’s like the old saying “dress for the job you want, not the job you have”.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#295

Post by Akronymus »

throwaway290 wrote: post #276
magicalist wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can take them at the onset of puberty, at which point you are an adolescent by definition, which is that the GP said.

I'm not saying what you can do or not, I just see evidence (a quick google away) that people are given meds to delay puberty, meaning before its start (= onset), meaning they are not yet adolescents by definition. Edit to everyone pointing out a technicality: yes, puberty blockers != hormone replacement therapy. However, puberty blockers ⊆ hormone replacement therapy.

"Delaying" Not really the right word to use IMO, as the body wont go through proper puberty after stopping the blockers.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#296

Post by kmonsen »

bergenty wrote: post #261
captainmuon wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the whole discussion. There are just many different models of gender. Its like particles vs waves. In one model, there are only two genders, in another five. There are those who say gender is culture and sex is real, and those who say sex is constructed, too. Some models describe reality better than others, some are useful, some are harmful. But nobody can or should stop you from thinking about reality wi…

It’s really not some complicated multiverse of possibilities. It’s biological, very factual and the underlying genetic basis is as objective as something can get.

There are actually corner cases here, although that’s not what usually comes up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Just a reminder that often reality is more complicated than we think. Names, numbers and upper/lower case are the usual examples.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#298

Post by duskwuff »

mlyle wrote: post #275
duskwuff wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making Copilot stop in its tracks when it sees the word "gender" and refuse to continue until the word is removed is still making a statement. Refusing to bat would be treating "gender" as a meaningless token, just as if you'd typed "traqre" instead.

No, refusing to generate stuff in an area where the output is likely to be controversial (in either direction) is refusing to bat. It'll wait for a pitch that it thinks it can hit, just like it refuses to play for many other categories-- you'll have hard time to get Copilot to enumerate races, too. Ignoring the potential offensiveness and YOLOing through it is swinging the bat wildly at every pitch.

I think you might not fully grasp the scope of the issue here. Right now, if a file you're editing contains one of the restricted words, Copilot will refuse to make any suggestions at all in that file while that word is present -- even if the word isn't relevant to the part of the file you're editing. To keep to the baseball metaphor, Copilot is going on strike at the first whiff of controversy.

What I'm suggesting is that Copilot should keep working when these words are present, but refuse to attach any significance to the specific word. This could probably be implemented by replacing the problematic words with randomly generated strings before processing the text, then swapping those strings back afterwards.

(It could be reasonable for Copilot to refuse to make suggestions at all if the output would contain truly offensive language, like unambiguous racial slurs or sexual terms. But "gender" clearly isn't that.)

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#299

Post by Elinvynia »

throwaway290 wrote: post #251
pseudalopex wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small children do not take hormones or have gender related surgery. Adolescents under medical oversight can. These treatments have very low regret rates and reduce suicides.

Ehm... Sorry to break it to you, but people who think they were born the wrong sex are increasingly treated with hormones before the onset of puberty (with puberty-delaying treatments it's kind of the point). Not arguing whether it's good or bad, but by definition they are children at that point in time.

Puberty blockers != Hormone replacement therapy

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#300

Post by Elinvynia »

smegsicle wrote: post #168
rayiner wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish “the discourse” would learn to acknowledge the difference between post-genderist ideas, and basic rights for transgender people. The latter is (1) already the law of the land, and (2) not politically controversial: https://www.kff.org/other/press-release/poll-large-majoritie... (“Large majorities of Americans think it should be illegal for either employers or health care providers to discriminate against peopl…

Quoted post unavailable.

Bathrooms and prisons, definitely. There is no magical barrier stopping a man from entering a woman's bathroom. What you are suggesting otherwise is buff trans men having to use the same bathroom as cis women, basically fulfilling your transphobic stereotype just not in a way you anticipated :)

As for sports, that's for the specific sport organizations to decide the rules based on latest research.

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