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People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

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Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#291

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

oofnik wrote: post #102

Why is this at all surprising? In any status-conscious society (read: any human society), given enough time, the people who make it to the top will invariably maximize opportunity afforded to their affinity group (i.e. offspring) at the expense of everyone else. This process manifests itself regardless of the role merit plays in the sorting algorithm. If the rules are relatively meritocratic (and relatively stable),…

Life is not fair. It only bothers you if you allow it to. Don't be bitter. Be better. Be grateful for what you have.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#292

Post by matthewdgreen »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #285
matthewdgreen wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Restrictions on what I can say Academia isn't perfect and it sure isn't what it once was. But go ahead and talk crap about your corporate employer for the next six months and see what happens to you.

It all depends what kind of crap you talk. There are plenty of things you just can't say and tenure won't protect you when they come for you. Ask Joshua Katz, formerly of Princeton. He complained very publicly and they dug up an old crime and tried him again. Suddenly the old crime that was punishable with a suspension before is now bad enough to merit firing. Note: I'm not speaking to the merits of how Princeton or…

From what I understand, Joshua Katz had a sexual relationship with one of his undergraduate students and behaved inappropriately with several others. When the matter was first being investigated he contacted the student directly and then failed to disclose this fact to the investigators, who then learned about it when the student filed a new complaint. I know it is fashionable to say this is about Katz's "speech" but the case would be much easier to make if he'd upheld basic standards of professional behavior (i.e., don't date or try to date your students.)

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#293

Post by Mezzie »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #277
Mezzie wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a freelancer + work in the non-profit space; I don't do corporate work. Which is also on purpose. ;) The difference is that corporate work never had the pretense of offering me intellectual freedom, whereas academia did. At least if I go corporate, they'll buy my silence with resources/$$$. Academia? So you want to give me nothing AND restrict what I can say? That's going to be a hard pass.

I have to push back against this since I have some personal experience here. As a (non-tenure-track) research assistant professor I got into a major argument with a dean at my University over a specific speech issue re: the NSA and Snowden leaks [1]. (The NSA is also a major funder of [part] of my University.) I was prepared to be fired when I refused to go along with the University's request: I was not fired, and in…

I appreciate the push back; it's how I learn and refine my positions.

I think it very much depends on what field you want to go into and the institution. Since I have the misfortune of having my primary academic research interests lie in the intersection of tech and society, my work is/would be unfortunately politicized. I'd also go in through Library/Information Science (which my Master's is in) if I were to get a PhD and go into research, and that particular field is STEEPED in rightthink.

I'm happy to hear that you had a positive experience, and it's definitely possible. It's just harder to find that than it used to be, and the opportunity cost for trying is very high.

> It's absolutely critical for our society that there be real institutions where policy critics can survive.

100% agree. I'd love for academia to grow a spine and assert itself.

(I did debate leaving the country, but as someone with a disability that isn't a permanent option.)

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#294

Post by wenc »

adamsmith143 wrote: post #241
wenc wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in tech, the majority of executives don't have Ivy League degrees. Some of them might have MBAs from good schools, but many went to ordinary colleges. I work in tech and in my entire reporting line, there is exactly 1 Ivy league graduate. Tim Cook went to Auburn (MBA at Duke). Satya Nadella went to Manipal Institute of Technology (then UW-Milwaukee, and later an MBA at UChicago Booth).

Check Linkedin, it's been a revelation for me. Filter by company and school and you will find hundreds of Ivy League+ types as Upper Level Management. Idk why one would only look at C-suite

Look below C-Suite. There are actually relatively few Ivy League types if you take a larger sample across industries.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#295

Post by hitovst »

Liars who wish to divide us use lie about "priviledge", etc. to confuse us, their enemies, and turn us against each other.

99.9% of the time, "deserve" applies to that which one has. Kind of like people who are confused about "respect".. they believe that when an ally tells them a truth they don't like, it is "disrespectful", and when a liar lies to them in a way they find pleasant, it's "respectful", when in both cases, the opposite is true.

A newborn hasn't "earned" what they have, but they deserve it because it is, and because their ancestors earned it for them. The wealthiest/healthiest people aren't people who at some point in their life learned a healthy diet, how to exercise, and to earn a high wage.. The healthiest/wealthiest people are those who had ancestors who sacrificed to earn, preserve, and teach, health/wealth to their descendants.

There are some people who spend money before they get it, and there are others who earn and save for their great grandkids who they don't expect to meet. The great grandkids don't earn their place when they're born, but their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents earned that place for them.

When people understand that IQ is inherited, and can't really be permanently increased (but can be permanently decreased through abuse, malnutrition, etc.), and that children require growing up in a family with married parents all living together to be healthy, their children will be far better off than those of people who don't realize those two things. If one lives their life accordingly, they will earn the several advantages for their children. It will be their child's to build from for future generations, or squander.

TL/DR; Elite backgrounds are "elite" for a reason. It is deserved, and based in merit.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#296

Post by recyclelater »

cs137 wrote: post #206
frognumber wrote: post #34

Elite schools want people from the power class. A lot of this is explicitly baked into admissions. Over 40% of white students at Harvard are side-door admissions (legacy, donors, children of faculty, etc.). This is especially true for minority admissions. For the most part, Harvard won't admit lower-class African Americans; they'll select from a much smaller pool who have already moved into the power networks. That's…

> Over 40% of white students at Harvard are side-door admissions (legacy, donors, children of faculty, etc.). I'm sure it's over 40%. It wouldn't surprise me if it's 70. There are a lot of side doors. My information is dated, but as of circa-2008, the Ivies were including ZIP code and paternal (but not maternal) profession in their predictive modeling. The interviews (which are evaluative, even when people say they'r…

Thank you for this. I’ve tried explaining this to many of my peers and family but even now, this viewpoint is considered bigoted by many, at least in major metro areas on the west coast. I think part of the problem is people are responding to the messenger (the right) rather than the message.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#297

Post by UncleMeat »

ethav0 wrote: post #253
UncleMeat wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Academics" usually means "university faculty or people working in research labs." These people tend to make low wages compared to typical industry positions. PhDs also don't tend to open too many doors in industry. At the major tech companies, they are roughly equivalent to 3-6 years of industry experience. They might make a resume more attractive, but you end up going through the same hiring process and largely wor…

But this is discluding those who work in academic research labs for major tech companies.

This is only applicable to a very small subset of STEM academics and is definitely not the expected career outcome for a STEM PhD.

There are indeed people with CS PhDs at Google and Microsoft whose primary job involves publishing papers rather than building applications. But that's not the norm.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#298

Post by pyuser583 »

rossdavidh wrote: post #221
thethethethe wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also there should be a high correlation between kids being college-material and parents being college-material. Whether you believe in nature (genetics) or nurture (good parenting, high standards, role model, access to education, etc), or a mix of both, either way, you should not expect the % of college students from graduate families to match the % of graduate families in the country. So not sure what point the ar…

"caste", the word you are looking for is "caste". It's not just a difference in incomes, it's a closed system for reproduction (college educated often meet their future spouse in college, and even if not are rarely willing to marry non-college educated). Closed system for reproduction plus inheritance (genetic and cultural both) is the predecessor to castes, given a few more generations of this kind of separation.

Except “first generation college student” is still very much a thing.

Re: People from elite backgrounds increasingly dominate academia, data shows

#300

Post by make3 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #263
alexpotato wrote: post #213

This story is decidedly anecdata, even personal, but I think it's illustrative of what's going on in certain fields. - Had a friend who has multiple graduate level degrees in architecture related sub-specialties e.g. architecture criticism etc - HN being what it is, I will mention that the pay for most of the jobs you would get with the above is zero or near zero. - There is also a dramatic oversupply of candidates f…

This is a decidedly personal, anecdotal story too, but I think it's illustrative of some of the reasons to hope for the world. I was dating someone that was a civil engineer and she absolutely hated the constant sexual harassment that happens on construction sites in Canada. She came from a poor family that fled Russia as the Soviet Union was collapsing. I told her I could teach her tech in one month. Whatever she wa…

hopefully she won't also get sexually harassed in tech
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