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The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#291

Post by samatman »

nerdponx wrote: post #227
samatman wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logical extreme of your argument is communism. I'm not even slightly accusing you of advocating communism, but rather, pointing out that the logical extreme is irrelevant.

Not at all. My argument is that some things are better when centrally administered to some degree, and that "I don't use it therefore I shouldn't have to pay for it" is itself an extreme and somewhat antisocial position to hold in general.

Your mistake is imputing reasonableness to yourself and extremity to your interlocutor.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#292

Post by kaba0 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #102
BossingAround wrote: post #92

Every time I see this article reposted, I feel a pang of sadness. It's this chasing of the SF salary outside of the US that is supposed to be the holy grail of every engineer in rich EU countries. Well, if you get hired by FAANG in Germany, you don't get the SF salary. My experience is that companies that do offer extreme salaries do not do so out of competition with FAANG (since FAANG does not compete with itself gl…

Unfortunately, I have to agree. The truth is that it’s entirely possible for some people to get SF FAANG level salaries while working in the EU, but those salaries are extremely rare . It’s not the same as SF or Seattle or NYC where there are numerous job opportunities and career paths that could lead to those salaries. Instead, they’re reserved for a select few high achievers who are uniquely talented and accomplish…

Would you mind sharing that international forum?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#293

Post by wiseowise »

tgv wrote: post #232
kortilla wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should work on They work on what society rewards them to work on. Attach massive guaranteed funding to companies that solve this problems and it will attract smart people competing for it.

That's a spin, and a bad one. First, it isn't society that rewards them, it's private companies and investment bankers. Second, you limit reward to monetary compensation. Third, people are not forced to take the best paying jobs. Doing so is selfish, which is the GP's point.

> Second, you limit reward to monetary compensation.

Only someone who has no issue with money can say that. Get off your high horse.

> Third, people are not forced to take the best paying jobs. Doing so is selfish, which is the GP's point.

Sure they are, if they want to live comfortably in life.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#294

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

Aeolun wrote: post #281
tgv wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a spin, and a bad one. First, it isn't society that rewards them, it's private companies and investment bankers. Second, you limit reward to monetary compensation. Third, people are not forced to take the best paying jobs. Doing so is selfish, which is the GP's point.

> Third, people are not forced to take the best paying jobs. Dunno if you’ve seen the prices for even single family houses in the Netherlands? Anything less than €100k is impossible if you plan to own a house.

100k salary or 100k house?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#295

Post by lnsru »

skuzye wrote: post #288
lnsru wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please share some information regarding these companies? I know one - Apple. But 5k is not their base salary, it’s lower with ton of stocks on top.

Google is hiring in Munich too. I couldn't find public salary information on salaries there though. I'd say it's competitive enough that I'd be willing to relocate from London there. Disclaimer: I work for Google. Words my own.

Thanks. According levels.fyi L5 might have this base salary. Funny thing is that none of these salaries are for the roles working with hardware. As electrical engineer I am sad about this situation.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#296

Post by wiseowise »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #245
benreesman wrote: post #240

IMHO the software engineering community has Stockholm’s syndrome around compensation (cue the doofy but not inaccurate jock/nerd dichotomy stereotype of not even 10 or 20 years ago). This shit is hard. Even relatively intermediate SWE jobs demand a level of fluid intelligence and capacity for detail within 1-2 sigma of the hardest jobs on Earth, and the more elite software jobs are among the most demanding jobs on Ea…

> and the more elite software jobs are among the most demanding jobs on Earth. You need to get out of that bubble. Even being a professional violinist is like an order of magnitude harder than the most hardcore software job. And most of them are payed shit.

> Even being a professional violinist is like an order of magnitude harder than the most hardcore software job.

And you got to that conclusion how?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#297

Post by mediascreen »

guenthert wrote: post #121
mediascreen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who pays taxes in Sweden and don't plan on having children, I would probably not choose to pay for 480 days parental leave per child, subsidised day care and child allowance payment to the extent they exists today if I had a choice.

You do want to incentivize people having kids though if there is not sufficient immigration. After all, who's going to pay your retirement?

How does it work in countries with slightly lower incentives? Are there other ways to get people to pay for my retirement? Maybe by attracting well educated immigrants?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#298

Post by kortilla »

tgv wrote: post #232
kortilla wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should work on They work on what society rewards them to work on. Attach massive guaranteed funding to companies that solve this problems and it will attract smart people competing for it.

That's a spin, and a bad one. First, it isn't society that rewards them, it's private companies and investment bankers. Second, you limit reward to monetary compensation. Third, people are not forced to take the best paying jobs. Doing so is selfish, which is the GP's point.

> That's a spin, and a bad one. First, it isn't society that rewards them, it's private companies and investment bankers

That is society. Private companies make money by making products/services for society. Investment bankers are investing your money, public retirement money, etc. Society generally doesn’t want its retirement money in funds with negative returns.

Pretending that what people pay for is not by and large what people are supporting is completely out of touch with reality. This is just classic stated preferences vs revealed preferences. People claim they want to solve world hunger and climate change; but when it comes to what they actually do with their money, they spend it on nicer houses, iphones, cars, and retirement.

> Third, people are not forced to take the best paying jobs. Doing so is selfish, which is the GP's point.

That’s a bullshit position to take unless you know what the person does with the money. A Googler who pulls down 400k a year and gives away 200k of it to effective charities is much better than someone who works for some pet project NGO.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#299

Post by varispeed »

brtkdotse wrote: post #272
faangguyindia wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to point out that FAANG high salary in US is cost of engaging brilliant minds who otherwise might work on competing products. For example, FAANG in India pays 10x local salary of an average dev in India. A guy with skills who who makes 5x-10x local salary in India will not be available on freelance market simply because he neither is going to paid well for the time spent there vs social recognition for the e…

> In Europe, it's much difficult to start a company and people aren't of typical mindset to jump start a company into global dominance. This is such a tired meme. It’s _orders of magnitude_ easier to start at company in a lot of European countries compared to the US. Creation process is in a lot of cases filling in a web form, paying €100 and waiting a week or two (yes, yes, in know it not like that everywhere). Furt…

It's not about starting company - in the literal sense as you write, because this is just an entry at some register somewhere.

Depending on the EU country, the experience may be nerve wrecking and some institutions treat you as a criminal for dearing to start your own business (typically in Eastern Europe). There is a lot of crabs in the bucket mentality from the communist times.

Then you have extremely complex legislation that is full of traps. Oh you forgot to send that form declaring something you thought irrelevant and nobody told you about? Here is the fine for you.

I know a couple of people who ended up with life changing financial troubles because their accountant messed something up, and not because their business was going bad.

Then you get the cliques and corruption in the cities. Your business is doing very well and you forgot to buy a dinner to a local politician? Too bad you would have learned his nephew has exactly the same business idea as yours. Month later your business is swarmed by all sorts of inspections from various government bodies. You can't do business and your customers think something is up with you and they no longer come. You end up having mental health problems and closing the business with debt.

Six months later your former clients call you to say that politicians nephew runs exactly the same business as you had in the office building you had rented. Politician's nephew offers you a job and you take it, because you are in debt.

This is how things work in Europe.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#300

Post by DoingIsLearning »

UkrainianJew wrote: post #71
sealeck wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at Google, Apple, Amazon, etc's balance sheets they're quite solid, not really at this point propped up by monetary policy any more.

It's not that easy. Lots of Amazon's profits come from countless unprofitable startups blowing VC money on AWS. Google is swimming in money because numerous companies have generous ad budgets. Apple relies on people exchanging their smartphone every year or so because why not. You cannot expect these things to go unchanged if the Fed stops throwing money around like it's used to. And if it doesn't, a bag of rice will…

I agree with your argument on risk exposure but I think you underestimate how much _cash_ those three companies actually hold. They really stockpilled these past five or so years.
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