Kids are far behind in school • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#291

Post by colpabar » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

em-bee wrote: post #273

nemo44x wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying it's everything else that's wrong. Not that we accept single motherhood as normal and OK? That's what's wrong here. Rights without responsibility. Stop incentivizing single motherhood, for starters. Encourage men to stick around and for both parents to rely on each other. It feels like you're helping but you're not. You're encouraging futile behavior.

that's not what i meant to say. what's wrong is that we keep trying to find out who or what is at fault instead of trying to find out how to actually make things better. the question is: how do you encourage men to stick around? what makes them leave? who or what is incentivizing single motherhood? if it is economical factors, then those factors need to change. those are what i gave as examples. what i hear is: being…

Of course there are external factors, but if you aren't even going to entertain the idea that the people who decide to live these lifestyles bear some of the responsibility for the outcomes, you are not helping anyone.

It seems that as a society we have given up on the idea of personal responsibility/accountability.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#292

Post by Ancapistani » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

jdmichal wrote: post #244

Ancapistani wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Example: I've hired people that had zero experience in one of our programming languages. They typically end up completing their first PR in that language within a month or two -- with assistance, of course. People tend to pick things up pretty fast when it's part of their job expectations. (I always make it clear during interviewing and the hiring process that such an expectation would be present.) This seems... ex…

Personally, I also don't care much what language I'm in. But not everyone has a brain that works that way. Also, some of the people I'm referring to are also of non-traditional backgrounds. Meaning they don't have a foundation in abstract computer science in order to ground such transitions. I'm also not counting changes like, "modify this one if-statement to work this way." I'm talking about actual meaningful change…

That makes sense.

While I don't technically have formal education in computer science, it's obvious that my mind just kind of... works that way. That's definitely an advantage both in learning new things and in teaching.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#293

Post by gnicholas » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #242

tfandango wrote: post #182

My wife teaches 2nd grade in a public school. She has kids this year who had not been in school since kindergarten. It is difficult to cover such an achievement gap when other kids in the class are on level. It's worse yet when our state has outsourced federal pandemic education fund distribution to 3rd parties which allowed people to purchase Xboxes and TVs. And even worse yet as her district is focusing on putting…

Serious question, what are you learning between kindergarten and 2nd grade that's so important? I remember my time there being effectively day-care, I learned more outside of class than inside it. The only real benefit was socializing with kids my age but otherwise everything I learned in those 2 years could've been taught in a week.

This is when most kids learn to read. Some kids have basic reading skills before kindergarten, and some learn after 2nd grade. But for most, this is the time when they go from being able to recognize a handful/bunch of words to being able to figure out new words, understand exceptions, and learn about grammar.

There's also a decent amount of conceptual math taught in these grades. I wouldn't say that the concepts are 'hard', but they do take repeated exposure for many kids to grasp them and perform them accurately. You could teach the skills in a week, but only very bright kids would immediately pick up on all of it and not need further practice to be on par with kids who attended K-2. For example, it takes repeated exposure and practice for kids to know that a number ending with 4 and a number ending with 6 will always sum to a number ending in 0. Or to know their multiplication tables.

Does it take three years to learn this stuff? No. But it can't be crammed into a week or even a month.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#294

Post by Agamus » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

v-erne wrote: post #226

lapcat wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this actually a problem for music though? Who are the future professional musicians? "My most motivated, talented and best supported students are on schedule or slightly ahead." So it's not clear that we're losing any potential virtuosos here. If a generation of amateur musicians end up being a little less proficient in music, that's unfortunate, but hardly worth panicking, I think. I personally started playing gu…

>> I personally started playing guitar, and tennis, too late in life to become a professional. I would argue that literally no one needs professional guitar and tennis players, those are at most the "nice to have". As humans we like to have nice things, even pretend that we have to have them otherwise our life is meaningless. Don't get me wrong I love music, but deep in my mind some intuition lingers, that its vanity…

I would argue with Nietzsche that, "life without music is a mistake".

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#295

Post by brightball » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

rufius wrote: post #288

brightball wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, the rules are so strict now that football's probably safer than it's ever been to play. Additionally, I've read a ton of studies of this stuff and everything that I've found said the risk at the high school level is virtually nonexistent when compared with the general student body. In the college and professional level where everybody is bigger, stronger and faster it's an entirely different situation.

I’m just gonna go ahead and go out on a limb and say that getting hit in the head repeatedly isn’t good for you, especially if you’re a developing child. But to each their own.

It’s just not that simple. You aren’t repeatedly being hit in the head playing football.

Even the linemen who have aggressive contact each play aren’t banging their heads together, they are using their hands. The helmets are largely protecting against incidental contact.

Head trauma comes from rapid changes in momentum that cause the brain to bounce around inside the skull.

Those from “horse collar” tackles, which are illegal now.

Those from intentionally or unintentionally having helmet to helmet contact, which is also illegal.

Virtually every type of helmet hit is penalized at this point.

Soccer headers are probably much worse I would imagine.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#296

Post by annyeonghada » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:32 PM UTC

cassac wrote: post #204

Well when you focus on activism and not academics, why would anyone be surprised that the academics suffer? Easy fix though, lower standards! Lots of districts are already figuring that out. If you take away the primary means to hold the educational system accountable then you have teachers who are unaccountable. All of the sudden all of them are good at their jobs and the teacher mafia… I mean union… can continue to…

Speaking as someone living in Italy sometimes it's worse than activism: it's pure laziness.

I (27 y/o) recently discovered that my sister's (16 y/0) History teacher hasn't done more than a week of lessons in the entire year: he comes in class, turn on the IWB (Interactive Whiteboard, the last unnecessary technology creeping in school), put on a video and let them watch while she do whatever she fancies.

During the entire year, out of a 400 page History textbook, they have done 39 pages. Now it is clear why there was so much opposition to the idea of online lessons: parents could finally see that their kids were not lying when they said that the teachers were incompetent.

The worst thing is that the teachers' mafia here refuse any kind of evaluation while teachers while touting the necessity of evaluation for the students: they are basically unfirable and devoid of any form of accountability.

I could stay entire evenings recalling events that should never happen in a normal school set[1], and that would be easily prevented with some quality control: they do not even need to be good teachers, just decent persons.

[1]One of my "teachers" used the fact the a dear friend of my classmate was killed in a car crash to mock her, the only satisfaction was having the entire class scream that she was a "dumb bitch": this in a very high-income, sophisticated, old money school.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#297

Post by lern_too_spel » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

colpabar wrote: post #291

em-bee wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's not what i meant to say. what's wrong is that we keep trying to find out who or what is at fault instead of trying to find out how to actually make things better. the question is: how do you encourage men to stick around? what makes them leave? who or what is incentivizing single motherhood? if it is economical factors, then those factors need to change. those are what i gave as examples. what i hear is: being…

Of course there are external factors, but if you aren't even going to entertain the idea that the people who decide to live these lifestyles bear some of the responsibility for the outcomes, you are not helping anyone. It seems that as a society we have given up on the idea of personal responsibility/accountability.

No, we as a society have deemed it irresponsible to leave it completely up to people who have never properly learned how to succeed in society what they want to do and instead set up programs to make it easier for them to get on the path to success.

There still remains a vocal part of society that have given up their civic responsibility to improve society (whether by ensuring the other participants in the democracy are educated or by reducing pollution, etc.) and that believes that these groups should continue to remain impoverished for generations, radiating harms on the rest of society.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#298

Post by annyeonghada » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

mattmcknight wrote: post #119

Simply end social promotion. You shouldn't move up to the next level of a class until you've mastered the current level. (Levels can be much smaller than a year.) Being at a different pace isn't a problem if you can just make up the time. The side effect bonus is letting other students test out of levels they don't need, they can finish early while others end later.

I agree with what you say in an ideal world where every teacher is of good quality but given that many teacher are incompetent or actively despise their students[1], how can I trust them that they're evaluating students in a unbiased, just, meritocratic fashion. I've always had top grades but seeing teachers' behavior has never let me trust them. I have respect for the job, I've even passed the exam to become a teacher (!) but it takes a toll on your mental health knowing that the majority of your coworker is unrespectable.

[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31482113

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#299

Post by taeric » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:42 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #271

taeric wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many ugly people do you remember that excelled at your school? Awkward people? Anyone that didn't have the support of being otherwise successful? Edit: if you click the timestamp on a post, you can reply to it. :) Having an activity vacuum up all the money from any alternative sidelines folks. Did you have a thriving chess club? Go? Math or spelling bee?

Thanks for the reply tip. :-) I honestly don't remember. I know we did have a chess club. We had "Mathletes" that was very popular. A lot of people were involved in it.

It is certainly possible that you also had a great school and environment. They do exist. :)

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#300

Post by boppo1 » Mon, May 23, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

kkfx wrote: post #179

usrn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that modern US public schools communicate the culture of the sounding community is honestly a little ridiculous sounding.

I'm speaking in theory, about schools as a concept. Modern schools implementations in western countries and most of the rest of the world are just about mass indoctrination.

Indoctrination to what? I went through US schools 98-2010, I don't recall any indoc.