Time to fork the FSF • Hacker News Board

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#291

Post by chimeracoder » Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 3:20 AM UTC

Produce wrote: post #284

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raise a good point about other subjects. I think it is more about on going costs. Not initial costs. I don't think there is any platform that isn't a pain to setup. Mac OS is probably worse for setup since there is no apt-get and doesn't ship with as complete a set of standard software. Eg. Ubuntu 10.10 to 11.04 required me to answer questions about some config files that I know nothing about. So you have to baby…

>Mac OSX has Time Machine and APIs for in built autosave and versioning. It's not perfect but any sort of backup is good, as is making sure you do not lose your work. And the ability to restore accounts from Time Machine is pretty nice. Linux has ??? TimeVault - http://lifehacker.com/275399/timevault-time-machine-for-linu... >Mac OSX has Spotlight. I can type in something like "Canon" and get all the pictures I took…

> I've heard horror stories about laptop power management on Linux, it could definitely do with some work.

It's not that bad, but it's highly driver-dependent. That's nothing new, though - driver issues are at the root of most complaints about Linux nowadays, I find.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#292

Post by wnight » Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 3:40 AM UTC

nknight wrote: post #260

wnight wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not legitimate for the mass of HN to be "in grief" because of Steve Jobs's death. You may be sad, but certainly no grieving period should be necessary for strangers. > When was this decided? And by who? Did I miss a memo? You need a memo to tell you others don't have to feel the same way you do? > So who's deciding how we are to legitimately feel about that? You, but keep it to yourself or risk other people s…

> You need a memo to tell you others don't have to feel the same way you do? Wow. What utter, irredeemable hypocrisy. "It's not legitimate for HN to grieve" is met by indignation at being told how we should feel, and then you have the unmitigated gall to declare in opposition that others don't have to feel the same way we do?! That was the point!

> It is not legitimate for the mass of HN to be "in grief" because of Steve Jobs's death. You may be sad, but certainly no grieving period should be necessary for strangers.

You seem to have missed a critical piece of the message.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#293

Post by wnight » Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 3:53 AM UTC

tychobrahe wrote: post #217

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software is not more important than life. // How about freedom? Is freedom from, for example, capitalist overlords more important than life? People give their lives for freedom all the time. > A great man has died, and all RMS can think about is what this means for the Free Software movement? // Meh. I don't see the problem with someone who didn't know Steve Jobs personally simply addressing how a change in leaders…

Ever heard of "blame the game, not the player"? Trying to put all the blame on Steve Jobs' shoulder, right after his death, is horrendous. Steve Jobs wasn't the enemy of freedom RMS paints him as. That he personally wrote letters against DRM on media-stores and against the closed-platform called Flash asking everyone to favor HTML5 made much much difference in those two specific areas than most things Stallman did la…

> Ever heard of "blame the game, not the player"?

Yeah, it's ridiculous. The "player" makes the choices, they get the blame.

Every time I see someone talking about how they just do what they have to do to feed their kids someone else steps up to say that they feed their kids without hurting others.

> Steve Jobs wasn't the enemy of freedom RMS paints him as. That he personally wrote letters against DRM on media-stores and against the closed-platform called Flash asking everyone to favor HTML5

Sure, against some DRM. But the iPhone and iPad are locked down.

Really, he was just against the other guy's walled garden while trying to steal bricks from it for his own.

> Funny, reminds me that that FOSS advocates here on NH are okay with Android prolonging Flash's life [...]

I wasn't aware I had to complain against all problems in every post. The love-in for Steve prompted these complaints. If there was a love-in for Android you'd see the anti-Android opinions coming out.

> Seriously, I'm tired of Stallman's half-assed socialism. It's an offense to me.

I don't think you know what the word means. I believe you're pretty offended though.

> You don't destroy capitalism by destroying companies, or people. You destroy capitalism by destroying the core of it...

Oh, do tell, our fully-assed socialist leader.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#294

Post by nknight » Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 4:07 AM UTC

wnight wrote: post #292

nknight wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need a memo to tell you others don't have to feel the same way you do? Wow. What utter, irredeemable hypocrisy. "It's not legitimate for HN to grieve" is met by indignation at being told how we should feel, and then you have the unmitigated gall to declare in opposition that others don't have to feel the same way we do?! That was the point!

> It is not legitimate for the mass of HN to be "in grief" because of Steve Jobs's death. You may be sad, but certainly no grieving period should be necessary for strangers. You seem to have missed a critical piece of the message.

So, what, you think "grief" is not a "feeling"? Being neither a psychologist nor your mother, I really have no idea how to begin to correct that problem, except to say that you are deeply mistaken.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#295

Post by wnight » Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 4:11 AM UTC

ordinary wrote: post #202

0x12 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. Stuff like that is FUD though, linux sound support is pretty good these days and the amount and variety of devices supported dwarfs the best the commercial world has to offer. In general, Linux support of legacy devices is amazing. Newly minted hardware without a factory supported driver is a different kettle of…

When a user installs Linux and can't get her brand new graphics card to work, she doesn't care whose fault that is. When the brightness adjustment keys don't work, all I think is "crap, my computer does not work". The vast majority of people are like that; my use of the first person singular was not an accident, I count myself among them. It's not a matter of assigning blame, it's a matter of recognizing reality. For…

> That is the hole a "Steve Jobs of free software" could fill.

How? By writing drivers for undocumented hardware?

> it doesn't just need to be as easy to install and maintain as Windows

Have you tried to install Windows recently? Fat-finger one prompt and you need to return it to the store to get it back. Make one little mistake in your backup and you need to buy install disks, etc. Don't buy anti-virus software and kiss it goodbye.

It's only easy because nobody does it - they all just pay the $100 install tax and have the store do it for them.

If you actually had to install a system and run a non-trivial program Mac would win, followed by Ubuntu, and then the rest would trickle in at the unusable-by-the-masses level.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#296

Post by Aga » Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 4:14 AM UTC

sharmajai wrote: post #242

DanBC wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you think Steve's products hamper your freedom Try and explain how to boot a MacBookPro from USB stick to someone, and compare that to booting almost any other computer. Or explain how to dual boot a Mac with OSX and Linux, vs anything else with Windows and Linux.

I have heard of many googlers, who use Ubuntu on their macbooks. Besides that is an ability which is not a prerequisite for majority of the computer users. Look I am a Ubuntu (not on a macbook though) user myself, and being a developer love the freedom that it provides, but we have to remember that everybody's requirement of freedom is different, for vast majority of the users freedom means, freedom from spending hou…

These kind of bargain sale definitions of the great word "freedom" we are having in these discussions make me feel genuinely sad.

Is freedom really something that can be taken this light? Can we really compare freedom to "do what ever you like" to freedom(?) to "not have to spend hours to tinker with something to make it work?"

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#297

Post by wnight » Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 4:55 AM UTC

jsz0 wrote: post #130

sgentle wrote: post #21

I don't get it, personally. Yes, Stallman's a loon - although as an aside I think that every good movement needs its loons. Who's going to say "you know what? I believe in Free Software so much that I will use nothing else, and publicly and harshly declare that anyone doing otherwise is a moron and a traitor to the future of humanity"? Anyone who is willing to sacrifice the usefulness of the last 30 years of propriet…

I think that every good movement needs its loons. This is probably true but when they become an embarrassment and a liability it's better to distance yourself from them as much as possible. His latest comments are particularly insensitive but it goes a lot deeper than that. Most of the stuff he writes leaves me with a more negative view of free software. He basically wants people to reject most modern software/techno…

> He basically wants people to reject most modern software/technology/services

No. If he wants anything from the average person, instead of for them, it's that they pay attention to the value of their freedom (to keep using your software when the key server goes offline, for instance) now instead of later when it's too late.

> Most of the stuff he writes leaves me with a more negative view of free software.

Of course. You resent what you see as his spiritual purity in rejecting Trojan horse DRMed products that lock you in because you know you aren't capable of going without something you want now for greater gain in the future.

You realize that going with the locked-down answer is as smart as selling your house for the short-term gain, but unlike Stallman, are unable to control your urges. Thus you hate him, and those who can.

Now, we both could be reading more into it than there is, but this is how your over-the-top hatred of a free software programmer comes across.

> This is probably true but when they become an embarrassment and a liability it's better to distance yourself from them as much as possible.

I'm sure you don't put 1/100th of the effort into actually attacking real evil people as you do in knocking down the other teams' supposedly sacred cows.

Or are you on the streets/otherwise fighting for freedom in Bahrain, Egypt, etc, freeing Bradley Manning, stopping censorship, women/children/men/the elderly's rights and all the other good fights, and this is just what's left for Stallman?

How is it that someone on such a high horse lacks perspective?

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#298

Post by hennypenny » Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 5:08 AM UTC

wnight wrote: post #295

ordinary wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a user installs Linux and can't get her brand new graphics card to work, she doesn't care whose fault that is. When the brightness adjustment keys don't work, all I think is "crap, my computer does not work". The vast majority of people are like that; my use of the first person singular was not an accident, I count myself among them. It's not a matter of assigning blame, it's a matter of recognizing reality. For…

> That is the hole a "Steve Jobs of free software" could fill. How? By writing drivers for undocumented hardware? > it doesn't just need to be as easy to install and maintain as Windows Have you tried to install Windows recently? Fat-finger one prompt and you need to return it to the store to get it back. Make one little mistake in your backup and you need to buy install disks, etc. Don't buy anti-virus software and…

Other than making baseless accusations without a shred of evidence I don't see any point in your post.

Windows 7 install (recently) from disk is dead simple, please give an example of something you could destroy through fat-fingering. Anti-virus is pointless for most users who don't pirate software and who use a modern browser (along with some common sense... Like say, not installing viruses). Kiss it all goodbye is ridiculous, when was the last time you heard of a virus doing anything other than installing spyware or a botnet?

Most people pay your so-called tax because there is no viable alternative, these aren't the kind of people who will buy the parts and put it together themselves.

Finally, I found ubuntu to be more difficult to install than windows. Think "proprietary" drivers... And there are a bunch of fat fingering opportunities in the ncurses version of the install.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#299

Post by lurker19 » Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 5:11 AM UTC

jvdh wrote: post #143

forensic wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. And? It's rms. He's the biggest nerd in the world. Nerds are expected to be horrendously, gratuitously crass, offensive and insensitive of people's emotions. This is like being mad that the sky is blue. Pointless outrage.

Agreed. Stating that a big nerd is one of the worst candidates for spokesperson of a good cause is similarly pointless. Yet somehow he still continues to be just that.

RMS has never tried to stop anyone from being a more charming and eloquent and popular advocate for free software. No one has volunteered; everyone has chosen to let him lead.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#300

Post by nostrademons » Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 5:14 AM UTC

lurker19 wrote: post #299

jvdh wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Stating that a big nerd is one of the worst candidates for spokesperson of a good cause is similarly pointless. Yet somehow he still continues to be just that.

RMS has never tried to stop anyone from being a more charming and eloquent and popular advocate for free software. No one has volunteered; everyone has chosen to let him lead.

There're arguably several more charming, eloquent, and popular advocates for free software, notably people like Linus Torvalds, Chris DiBona, Brad Fitzpatrick, etc.