Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles • Hacker News Board

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#291

Post by mlyle » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #216

TuringNYC wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. As i learned in college, the real "coaching" was rich parents getting rich kids more time on the SAT by getting psychiatric diagnostic classifications that give you more time. Time has been the real challenge on SATs for most people beyond a…

I finished the SAT early, and used the extra time to go back to the beginning and verify each answer. More time wouldn't have done much. If you can answer the questions, there's enough time to complete the test.

I understand your perspective-- my test memories were all breezing through tests with copious extra time... But as an educator I've noticed that there is a wide variation in the amount of time needed for a test between students. For some tasks it is nearly an order of magnitude.

The students who are quick and on the competitive math team finish something in 6-7 minutes and some other students are doing correct work but not quite done in 45 minutes. More practice doesn't seem to make them much quicker, either.

And this is in students without a formal diagnosis that allows them to spend extra time.

[There was one time I crashed and burned on a test and ran out of time... where I didn't memorize enough of a big table of identities for a trig test and ended up having to derive everything from scratch]

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#292

Post by KMag » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #208

ar_lan wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anecdotal/lived experience, to your point: The rich kids in my (public) school were the ones afforded not only tutors, but also just the insight into extra-curriculars. They were the ones who had parents who knew to sign them up for college courses at ~15-16 years old to ensure they could maximize their GPA (5.0 scale, so getting a 5.0 was literally impossible unless you did this). This created a competitive disa…

As far as extra-curricular activities go, like sports, etc., those aren't really the point. The point is for the candidate to demonstrate that they can accomplish significant things other than academics. This can be anything. For me, I didn't do sports, or any school extracurriculars. What I did do was run a small business (paper route), used the money to fund my hotrodding efforts, was an Eagle scout (back in the da…

I went to MIT 20 years ago. Plenty of people smarter than me failed out. MIT seems to do a pretty good job of screening out people who won't pick up the material fast enough. In my experience, the ones who failed out were the ones who were plenty smart but didn't adjust fast enough to having to work hard for the first time in their lives. If you get into MIT, you've probably gotten special treatment from teachers your whole life, and not really had to work hard before.

My high school had just shy of 4,000 students in 4 grades. My senior year, I took slightly over a "full course load" at the local state university, plus went to high school 1/4 time. Technically, that wasn't supposed to happen, but administrators look the other way for smart kids. I wasn't really competing against others in my grade. People asked if I was smarter than the girl a year ahead of me who went to Harvard. She was my competition. I'm sure something similar happened with a kid a year behind me.

I knew that at MIT, I'd probably just be an average student. However, I really underestimated how hard it is to learn to work hard when you've been able to coast through your first 18 years, despite taking honors courses at the nearby state university, etc. I think the SATs are probably generally pretty good at measuring how quickly students learn, but there's a certain grit it takes to succeed at MIT that the SATs don't cover at all.

Edit: I'm also an Eagle Scout, but I came through after it became significantly easier. It seemed to me that probably at least 10% of the men at MIT were Eagle Scouts. If nothing else, it shows an ability to stick with something for at least a few years, despite it being uncool for most of your peer group.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#293

Post by tomkat0789 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

I hated taking the SAT/ACT, but holy cow are we in the US in a better situation than Chinese students dealing with the Gaokao. A Chinese pen-pal once showed me some calculus problems from the Gaokao and the example I saw (a bunch of integrals) looked like a math test a sadist would create: long, complicated expressions just for the sake of complexity, "ugly" numbers that turned into messy fractions you have to carry around. I (a graduate engineering student at the time) couldn't identify any trick or educational point to the complexity, only the malice of the people giving the test.

EDIT: wording

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#294

Post by jancsika » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #208

ar_lan wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anecdotal/lived experience, to your point: The rich kids in my (public) school were the ones afforded not only tutors, but also just the insight into extra-curriculars. They were the ones who had parents who knew to sign them up for college courses at ~15-16 years old to ensure they could maximize their GPA (5.0 scale, so getting a 5.0 was literally impossible unless you did this). This created a competitive disa…

As far as extra-curricular activities go, like sports, etc., those aren't really the point. The point is for the candidate to demonstrate that they can accomplish significant things other than academics. This can be anything. For me, I didn't do sports, or any school extracurriculars. What I did do was run a small business (paper route), used the money to fund my hotrodding efforts, was an Eagle scout (back in the da…

> What I did do was run a small business (paper route), used the money to fund my hotrodding efforts, was an Eagle scout (back in the days when that was something), etc.

If I were a college admissions officer strapped for time, I'd let the app through on proof of "Eagle Scout" and ignore the other two.

The only easier bet would be seeing the words "I'm Hungarian" on an app for a secret world-saving advanced math project.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#295

Post by zozbot234 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

adfgadfgaery wrote: post #215

hkt wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is reasonable to wonder about the psychology of opponents of standardized testing It is, at its core, a fear that testing largely reproduces the status quo. If one accepts the idea that there is an intellectual elite who constitute the highest strata of society, and that their gifts are innate and heritable rather than trained, it follows that social mobility is pretty much dead. It is a bleak vision. Personally…

>it follows that social mobility is pretty much dead. It is a bleak vision. I have always found the idea of social mobility depressing. It assumes that we will always have a hierarchy, with some people who are powerful and prestigious and others who are poor and always feel inadequate. It assumes that we will always have an underclass but at least people can leave it.

The kind of social mobility that SAT has some influence on is not really about "power and prestige", which I also think of as generally pathological dynamics. It's literally about how competent and professional you want to be, and how well you can perform your work duties. It's social mobility within the 'working' class, not really away from it.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#296

Post by rg111 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

caffeine wrote: post #209

rg111 wrote: post #130

> as a result, not having SATs/ACT scores to consider tends to raise socioeconomic barriers to demonstrating readiness for our education It all come down to me to what this point touches. When you have a test, you have something definite to prepare for. Even if you do not have dedicated mentors or well-wishing, caring teachers, you simply know there is a test that significantly improves your chances for MIT. When you…

The no-test policy is espoused by two groups who find themselves to be unlikely allies: naive progressives and actual racists. The naive progressives think what you’d expect: “Minorities and poor people can’t possibly be expected to do well on anything objective, so it’s unfair to test them”. It is bigotry, but at least it’s well-meaning. The actual racists are more cynical: “I don’t want Yale to be 67% Asian.” Obvio…

They just want to see some races and ethnicities more at colleges.

This is a sad case of Goodheart's Law [0] in action.

Some people have chosen one metric as a measure of progress of historically oppressed races- enrolment in college degrees.

And this serves no one.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17320640

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#297

Post by spideymans » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

rg111 wrote: post #130

> as a result, not having SATs/ACT scores to consider tends to raise socioeconomic barriers to demonstrating readiness for our education It all come down to me to what this point touches. When you have a test, you have something definite to prepare for. Even if you do not have dedicated mentors or well-wishing, caring teachers, you simply know there is a test that significantly improves your chances for MIT. When you…

> When you have a test, you have something definite to prepare for. Even if you do not have dedicated mentors or well-wishing, caring teachers, you simply know there is a test that significantly improves your chances for MIT.

Totally tangential, but this is also why I’ve slowly come around to appreciating technical interviews. Yes, it’s annoying, but it’s also a pretty straightforward path to getting a $150k+/yr job.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#298

Post by ProfessorLayton » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

david38 wrote: post #183

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I live in a very rich town, like super rich. I work in tech so am rich by the standards of general population, but by the standards of Silicon Valley. My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do. Literally this was it. Furthermore, she doesn’t know of a single friend or acquaintance that hired a private tutor. All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for…

>I live in a very rich town, like super rich.

>My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do.

I don't intend to belittle anyone's accomplishments, but there's a lot more to high ACT scores than a $35 book, no?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#299

Post by heavyset_go » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

david38 wrote: post #183

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I live in a very rich town, like super rich. I work in tech so am rich by the standards of general population, but by the standards of Silicon Valley. My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do. Literally this was it. Furthermore, she doesn’t know of a single friend or acquaintance that hired a private tutor. All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for…

You aren't rich if you have to work and you're relying on what a high school student tells you who doesn't know all the details of the lives of other students, just what they tell her. In my experience as a student, other students will keep their tutoring and hand-ups under wraps.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#300

Post by tzs » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

grego61 wrote: post #212

One way that rich parents can game SAT/ACT is through aggressive seeking of test accommodations for disabilities. There was common knowledge of up to 50% of test takers having extended time in some affluent private schools in the SF Bay Area prior to the Covid pause.

In the case of students trying to get into MIT I wonder if there is actually much point in gaming the test?

The article says they are using the tests as a threshold. It sounds like they don't care by how much you pass the threshold, just that you have passed it.

I'd expect that most students who will be able to survive at MIT can make the SAT threshold with no gaming of the test and no test prep other than maybe doing one or two free sample tests.

Someone who could not easily make the threshold on their own who games their way in is just going to find that the coursework crushes them. All that gaming their way in gains them is the ability to in a year or two add "flunked out of MIT" to their bio.