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MDN Plus

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Re: MDN Plus

#291

Post by tssva »

fckthisguy wrote: post #278
ComodoHacker wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing missing from this announce is the promise that all proceeds go to MDN and nowhere else, like subsidizing a failing product or paying C-suite bonuses.

Ring fencing funds could be a real issue for Mozilla. They desperately need new revenue streams to support their primary product (the Firefox browser) since it's non- revenue earning. I wouldn't mind these funds going towards Firefox, or even other products woth a little reluctance, but agree they shouldn't go towards other costs like bonuses or "operation costs".

"They desperately need new revenue streams to support their primary product (the Firefox browser) since it's non- revenue earning."

Isn't Firefox by far the largest revenue earning product they have? It currently generates revenue of $400-450 million a year through the sale of the default search engine within the browser.

Re: MDN Plus

#292

Post by cxr »

chatmasta wrote: post #195

Fundamentally, maintaining MDN is costly because of the rate of instability in rapidly changing browser APIs. Those APIs change quickly and inconsistently because they’re managed by a centralized cabal of a few corporations with a combined multiple trillions of dollars in market cap. And yet, somehow it’s Mozilla, the browser vendor with the least money, that ends up saddling the cost for MDN. Why is this? In general…

> Fundamentally, maintaining MDN is costly because of the rate of instability in rapidly changing browser APIs.

Browser APIs change far less than the impression that most people have. (That impression is mostly the result of churn in what's fashionable on GitHub/Twitter this month, i.e. non-standards-based code from arbitrary projects that don't have anything to do with the browser except that they themselves are built to run in the browser.) Browser APIs are mostly cumulative.

The places where that isn't true are almost all experimental APIs. Arguably, these shouldn't be "advertised" within the reference to begin with—even before we ever consider the cost of keeping those pages up-to-date.

Re: MDN Plus

#293

Post by SECProto »

Vinnl wrote: post #272
SECProto wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this to be an accurate comparison, there should be two free sources of peanut butter, one that I want to donate to because it helps keep the peanut butter playing field level, while the other has a massive majority of the peanut butter market and uses that to do various anticompetitive things. But the one I want to support doesn't accept donations, only the parent conglomerate does.

I feel like you might be missing the point I'm (and GGP's) trying to make. If you're considering whether to give your money, why would you focus on exec salaries rather than results? So the comparison is: if you're buying a jar of peanut butter, why would you focus on what their execs are paid, rather than the peanut butter it will get you? (And to pre-empt that: I'm not saying you can't criticise results. I'm saying…

> So the comparison is: if you're buying a jar of peanut butter, why would you focus on what their execs are paid, rather than the peanut butter it will get you?

I think we both agree on this. What they pay their execs is irrelevant. What I'm saying is, I'm not buying peanut butter, it's available for free. I am considering donating money for the peanut butter I already get for free, but the grocery conglomerate that accepts donations on behalf has already fired half the peanut farmers, and discontinued the Crunchy variety that I really liked.

Re: MDN Plus

#294

Post by cxr »

clairity wrote: post #214

> "In 2020 and 2021 we surveyed over 60,000 MDN users and learned that many of the respondents wanted a customized MDN experience. They wanted to organize MDN’s vast library in a way that worked for them." in 2022, i really hate this "users told us" phrasing, because it's always misleading, and even normative at the margin. users didn't tell you anything, you inferred that from, here, a single survey (and that's more…

> i really hate this "users told us" phrasing[...] this is one of those cargo-cult product (marketing) phrases i hear over and over

Except that's a made up quote. That phrase doesn't appear anywhere in the part you lifted from the blog post (the thing that's an _actual_ quote) or any other part of it.

Re: MDN Plus

#295

Post by daveloyall »

bluedays wrote: post #202
dend wrote: post #63

This is an interesting take on documentation - mainly because I fail to see the value proposition in paying for the functionality provided. Speaking from my own experience: - Notifications. I am not sure that I've ever needed to know when a doc is updated, because if there is anything radical coming on the market (or in a spec proposal), there are other avenues to find out about it. - Collections. That is already a f…

Think of it as an easy way to donate to Mozilla

This way seems pretty easy: https://donate.mozilla.org/ I just set up a recurring monthly donation there specifically because I'm repulsed by the idea of anything that even approaches "pay-for-play" within the sphere of technical documentation.

I don't see a way to leave a comment on my donation, unfortunately, so I came here and hit `ctrl+f donat`, in hopes of finding someplace to put my comment.. So. Hi!

Mozilla, please carry on with your primary mission and eschew common corporate strategies. I hope the dollars help. Godspeed! p.s. MDN Plus? No thanks..

Re: MDN Plus

#296

Post by cxr »

Rapzid wrote: post #232

I don't feel anyone should need to personally "donate" to MDN or feel compelled to out of some sense of moral obligation; or any other reason for that matter. This isn't a donation per-say, but many on here seem to not care one iota about the features but still express a sentiment to want to "donate".. The major players make nigh uncountable sums of money from "the web". The major browser vendors have pretty much del…

> The major browser vendors have pretty much delegated documenting how to develop against the browser platform to MDN.

Are you sure about that? To use your example, Microsoft was one of the companies behind the launch of WebPlatform.org and the push to make it the vendor-neutral repository of documentation for Web browser tech. It eventually folded out of recognition that developer.mozilla.org was the de facto place for Web developers.*

Assertion: "When the WebPlatform.org effort folded, folks from Microsoft and elsewhere began redirecting their contributions to land on MDN."

How would you know if the previous statement were true or not? It's a collective work—formerly a wiki, and now managed through GitHub PRs.

Re: MDN Plus

#297

Post by Sakos »

cxr wrote: post #288
fckthisguy wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ring fencing funds could be a real issue for Mozilla. They desperately need new revenue streams to support their primary product (the Firefox browser) since it's non- revenue earning. I wouldn't mind these funds going towards Firefox, or even other products woth a little reluctance, but agree they shouldn't go towards other costs like bonuses or "operation costs".

Where in the world did you get these ideas? > They desperately need new revenue streams to support their primary product (the Firefox browser) No, they don't. The Corporation receives almost half a billion USD annually—over 2.5x what they were bringing in 10 years ago (when they were supporting 20+% of the world's Web browsing; for comparison, they're now at > since it's non- revenue earning What? There's a reason wh…

Much of that is from Google. It makes sense to replace that and reduce that dependency on a single instance.

Re: MDN Plus

#298

Post by Sakos »

dikaio wrote: post #224
chatmasta wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So put the governments in charge of the standards committees. I would personally never advocate for that, but it’s a potential solution.

Putting the government in charge of anything is almost never the right way forward IMHO

If companies are unwilling to do something that's in the best interests of their users and customers, then government is the only way to force them in a more socially beneficial way. Government absolutely has its place. Self-regulation only works as long as companies are actually willing to do what's necessary.

Re: MDN Plus

#299

Post by spacexsucks »

mstade wrote: post #290

Wait, so you mean to say I can pay $50 a year for high quality documentation that is eminently useful in my day to day work, and I get things like notifications when said content changes? And on top of that, I’ll be supporting free access to said content to those who might need it he most, like kids learning to program or rookies just starting their careers? AND it’s tax deductible? Pfft, shut up and take my moneys p…

Same. I have been using MDN for 15 years.

Re: MDN Plus

#300

Post by lowercased »

lowercased wrote: post #91

The long descriptive post ends with "We invite you to try the free trial version or sign up today for a subscription plan that’s right for you." But... no sign up button. Two of the internal links point to more info on features, which have a different menu at the top with a 'get mdn plus' button. I guess that's how you're supposed to get it? Just surprised they felt the need to avoid putting a sign up link on the blo…

HEY - look at that - thanks for adding the links at the bottom of the post MDN :)
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