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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#291

Post by mrtksn »

keybored wrote: post #217
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

I cannot express how bewildering this comment is. The article in question is about using torture as a training tool -- inflicting brain damage on a person so that folks will learn the valuable skill of beating up defenseless people. Then this comment comes along and complains about the optics of it. Why? Because it undermines "Western civilization". And what's the problem with that? Because then Western civilization…

No it's not about optics and I don't see any value in discussing if torture is right or wrong as it is an age old question. Since I'm not happy about it, I'm obviously on the "torture is wrong" camp and I have no intention of listening about the virtues of torture. Also, an expression of sympathies about the victim will only bloat the text and weaken the point I find important. What's the point of everyone repeating how horrible torture is? I think that must be given.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#292

Post by monocasa »

dragonwriter wrote: post #288
monocasa wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally our entire justice system is built on the idea that the only ethical option is that victims and families of victims don't decide the flow of our justice process, and in fact require anyone who is too close to the victims to recuse themselves. Turning it around, how would you like if the police tortured your child in a case of mistaken identity? Looking at the members of my high school class who became cops,…

> Literally our entire justice system is built on the idea that the only ethical option is that victims and families of victims don't decide the flow of our justice process No, it's not, and the divergence between reality and this description is increasing, essentially monotonically, over time, with legal incorporation of “victim’s rights” into the criminal justice process. That's not to say it shouldn't be as you de…

Victims rights stop at the boundaries of the rights of the accused. They boil down to being explicitly notified of changes of public information like court dates and release dates, the ability to be present for public proceedings, and reaffirming their protection from the accused WRT instruments like restraining orders.

https://www.justice.gov/usao/resources/crime-victims-rights-...

They don't extend to the decision making process for others' investigations and prosecutions.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#293

Post by cryptonector »

mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

It's a very small step from this to disappearing and torturing dissidents at home. With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal, I think we're approaching that point.

Then when we get there and someone disappears (say, a colleague, a friend of a friend), some will think and even say "they must have done something". How do I know? Because that is what happened in Argentina during its Dirty War. Oh, I know, most of you will say "that could never happen in my country because we're a first-world Western nation", but Argentina very much was and still is a Western country, complete with rule of law ("Estado del Derecho"), and it was much wealthier then relative to the rest of the world, and had been truly first world in 1950. So, yes, these things very much can happen here in the U.S., and in Canada, and in the UK, and in France and Germany and Spain and Italy and Netherlands and Belgium and Norway and Sweden and so on.

It takes a very small number of men to do most of the torturing and killing domestically. Sure, lots more are needed to do the arresting (disappearing) of victims. But not very many need to get down and dirty. Just ten men killing 150 victims/year would have covered the majority of the killings in the Dirty War over six years.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#294

Post by ALittleLight »

rendall wrote: post #199
ALittleLight wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've each posed a scenario to the other. There is a difference though. My scenario is a real life event that actually happened. My scenario is a realistic and common sense instance about a moral choice with straightforward consequences. Beat a man to save a child. Your scenario, by contrast, is an unrealistic fantasy with magic consequences. You are asking "Would you do something good, if, by magic, doing something…

> My scenario is a real life event that actually happened. Not really. It was a story that a philosophy book used to illustrate a conundrum. It bore resemblance to "actually happened" like a film "based on true events". Are we taking the word of the cops and philosophers or does the man himself have something to say about it? What would have happened if the cops didn't beat the man? We will never know. But ok, let's…

It's a real case that went to trial in New Zealand. The car thief was on video stealing the car, he confessed to stealing the car (admittedly under torture), and he was able to locate the stolen car and child.

As it happens, we know what would've happened had the police not beat him, because they tried that first. The man refused to say where the car was. He would rather let a child die than admit to car theft. Of course, maybe, if they had let the child die a magic genie would've prevented all future crime - it's as plausible as your hypothetical - so maybe the police did wrong after all...

As for your question my moral judgements are tuned to reality, not nonsense fantasy land. I don't have a strong sense of what is right and wrong in a universe that does not obey causality as I know it. I would, however, be willing to beat the thief if it were my child in the car.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#295

Post by dhosek »

arcbyte wrote: post #205
Loughla wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really answer my question. Also, and I'm really not trying to be snarky, that statement sounds like something the child of abusive parents would say. If only Obama had been quiet, they would've left him alone. That's a no-win situation, I think. Either way, it didn't really answer my questions.

I'm answering your question by suggesting that Obama could have gotten much more done if he had not been so extremely partisan from day 1. When it became clear he was not going to negotiate any changes to the monumental Obamacare law and pass it through on a partisan vote, the only natural response for Republicans seeking to effect their own policy agenda was to block as much as possible. In effect Obama, rather than…

I'm sorry, but you're ignoring the actual things that happened. There were good faith negotiations with the Republicans about Obamacare and post-crash stimulus and the Republicans chose to unanimously vote against them because they saw a partisan advantage to doing so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-A09a_gHJc

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#296

Post by jokethrowaway »

mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

Power corrupts, when you're capable of doing this and go unpunished, you'll have people doing it.

Every government ever had and will have this problem.

What we should try to achieve in our society is to limit the power given to individuals on other people and allow each member of society to be free of centralised coercion. Nobody should have a monopoly on violence and nobody should be able to forcefully collect taxes from people and then go and wage a war on foreign people.

You can call it being anti-establishment, I call it being morally consistent with the idea of freedom which is so often touted in the USA.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#297

Post by freeflight »

ericmay wrote: post #168
pydry wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not especially thrilled with the idea that this can grant you a license to murder me in my sleep with impunity simply because Im not a US citizen. The alternative of supernational courts dispensing justice at an international level is essentially loose federations of gangs doing the same thing. And, when a kid in a crips neighborhood tries to join the bloods...

> I'm not especially thrilled with the idea that this can grant you a license to murder me in my sleep with impunity simply because Im not a US citizen. Doesn't seem to stop other countries from doing this internationally and to their own citizens anyway. Something like the ICC in how you're envisioning things can only work when it's backed by military force. So long story short, it is mainly just the U.S. enforcing…

> Doesn't seem to stop other countries from doing this internationally and to their own citizens anyway.

What other countries are constantly drone assassinating people in other countries territories?

The closest to that I can think of might be Turkey and Saudi Arabia with their drone operations in Syria and Yemen, but those campaigns accompany full blown open military campaigns, quite a bit different to US signature strike operations.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#298

Post by lesuorac »

cryptonector wrote: post #293
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

It's a very small step from this to disappearing and torturing dissidents at home. With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal, I think we're approaching that point. Then when we get there and someone disappears (say, a colleague, a friend of a friend), some will think and even say "they must have done something". How do I know? Because that is what happened in Argentina du…

> With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal

Isn't that the exact opposite of disappearing?

I think the examples you're looking for are DHS hotel/detention centers [1] and Chicago's hidden detention centers [2].

[1]: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/marriott-choice-hotels-serve... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homan_Square_facility

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#299

Post by joe_the_user »

mrtksn wrote: post #176
naoqj wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. How does having "the moral high ground" help the lower class of a society?

Notice that the antiestablishment movement is not about fixing something but taking down the current state(the individual fractions have different ideas on the fix but they unite on the destruction). Not having the moral high grounds enables that because you no longer have a discussion over how to solve issues, everything is about destroying the current order(since it's completely corrupt and immoral, beyond any repa…

Notice that the antiestablishment movement is not about fixing something but taking down the current state(the individual fractions have different ideas on the fix but they unite on the destruction). Not having the moral high grounds enables that because you no longer have a discussion over how to solve issues, everything is about destroying the current order(since it's completely corrupt and immoral, beyond any repair).

You're mistaking a prevailing attitude today for some "antiestablishment movement". You're right that a lack of moral compass is causing our society to degrade. But "the establishment" and "the barbarians" is essentially the same group - anyone with power or a platform today has learned to package themselves as against some "system" whenever it's convenient and things being bad, it's often convenient (plenty of "rogue CIA officers doing what "the system" won't do to defend America" types out there - they have had publicity with shows like "24" as well). Of course, the prevalence of and even admiration for, unprincipled chameleons is a way this society is degrading as well. But it's situation anyone would have trouble walking back.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#300

Post by throwawaycities »

leereeves wrote: post #261
throwawaycities wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to hear this all the time in law school, something to the effect that the US should never relinquish its sovereignty by signing the Rome Statute and subject itself to the International Criminal Court. This was at the height of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the associated allegations of POW torture and abuse (e.g. Abu Ghraib, waterboarding, guantanamo bay, etc…). How ironic 20 years later the very sa…

> look at the other UN member countries not signatories to the Rome Statute subject to the ICC: China, Iraq, Israel, Libya, Qatar, and Yemen That's far from a complete list. There are 193 UN members[1]; only 123 have made themselves subject to the ICC[2]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Na... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Sta...

I never said it was a complete list. On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights.
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