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Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#291

Post by throwoutway »

snek_case wrote: post #61
asats wrote: post #3

Two out of the last three remaining somewhat independent media that were still operating in the country (already under major restrictions) were also shut down, TV rain just did their last transmission and walked out of the studio crying: https://youtu.be/e4an0MlF27k?t=11397 Twitter and facebook are being blocked. Youtube and group chats in telegram/signal/etc are the only things left right now. 7670 people have been…

Very similar to what China has done. Seems that it's unfortunately pretty effective. Control the information the people are fed and they control public opinion.

I’ve been saying that this is starting to happen in the United States (there’s currently a public debate on this) and it could swing full authoritarian.

I hope the citizens realize it can be just as bad in the West if we give governments and corporations more control

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#292

Post by asdswe »

tgv wrote: post #145
asdswe wrote: post #125

Putin is no better than Hitler and nothing the Russian government says can be trusted. They only respect force, nothing else.

I’m sorry, but that’s a bizarre remark. Hitler can be held accountable for millions of deaths, in all kinds of inhuman ways. Putin is nowhere near that and I cannot see that happen either.

Putin is looking to expand his country's borders quite similarly to Hitler, regardless of economic or human costs. It's up to rest of the world to show him the only thing he respects, which is power.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#293

Post by goodoldneon »

MemesAndBooze wrote: post #280
csee wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no equivalence here. Russia has assassinated about 50 journalists under Putin and imprisoned/beaten many more. They have a very tight stranglehold on press freedom. But yes, we need to take it extremely seriously in the West and fight against any and all encroachments so that we don't slide further towards authoritarianism. Recent trends have been concerning.

Do you have a list of the names of those 50 killed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#294

Post by wbsss4412 »

marcusverus wrote: post #117
electrondood wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit false equivalence. I notice that Democrats aren't forming white supremacist militias, plotting to kidnap state governors, attacking Congress specifically to overturn the results of a national election, etc.

If you only apply 'guilt by association' to your opponents, but not to yourself and your tribe, then your worldview will be built on a foundation of cheap rhetorical tricks. Remember when Hillary's mentor (Mr. Byrd) was a former KKK Grand Dragon (and Democrat Senator)? Or when that democrat attempted to assassinate a dozen Republican lawmakers on a baseball field? How about the one who killed five cops in Dallas? Or…

Byrd entered congress while the south was still segregated.

Not to excuse his actions at earlier times in his life, but by the time he was a “mentor” to Hillary Clinton he had renounced racism and and segregation and was the longest serving member in the US senate and an expert on its procedures.

Pointing out that the Democratic Party was full of southern segregationists in the early 20th century is pure laziness.

Additionally, the federal courthouse wasn’t “firebombed” some groups broke in and set fires. It was violent and destructive but you’re vastly exaggerating the scale.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#295

Post by frabbit »

dTal wrote: post #286
frabbit wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow! That should be the real headline story. "Western" (w.t.f. does that mean?) state destroys freedom of speech in order to save it from Russia.

Those channels were toxic propaganda, psyops designed to divide and weaken Russia's enemies. Such things are never tolerated in war. I do think this is a period in human history where we're going to have to let go of some naive notions pertaining to "freedom of speech".

> Those channels were toxic propaganda, psyops designed to divide and weaken Russia's enemies.

How do you know that if you can't see them? And if you have been looking at them and have made a judgement why can't other people do the same?

> Such things are never tolerated in war.

Wait, what?! The Czech Republic is at war with Russia?

> this is a period in human history where we're going to have to let go of some naive notions pertaining to "freedom of speech".

And replace it with a sophisticated, jesuitical understanding? I'd prefer if you were honest and just said you do not believe in Free Speech.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#296

Post by tgv »

asdswe wrote: post #292
tgv wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry, but that’s a bizarre remark. Hitler can be held accountable for millions of deaths, in all kinds of inhuman ways. Putin is nowhere near that and I cannot see that happen either.

Putin is looking to expand his country's borders quite similarly to Hitler, regardless of economic or human costs. It's up to rest of the world to show him the only thing he respects, which is power.

So many rulers tried to extend their domain. Why not compare Putin to Nebuchadnezar or Queen Anne?

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#297

Post by ch4s3 »

frabbit wrote: post #236
ch4s3 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assange should be let go, what's happened to him has been awful. But that's the result of the Obama administration's policy and is literally 1 person vs. the eradication of all independent press in an entire nation. We should free Assange and condemn Russia jailing at least 293 journalists right now.

Completely in agreement. But it's important to note that we have more power over what happens to Assange than we do over Russia. Empty condemnation of Russia while we simultaneously prosecute the publisher of information which helps us decide whether we are behaving in an immoral manner is not merely hypocritical: it's corrosive of the fundamentals of our society. Right now the Afghans, Iraqis and Syrians that we mur…

You can walk and chew gum at the same time as the expression goes. I've written to representatives specifically about cutting off arms and intelligence to the Saudi effort in Yemen, and as I said I'm against prosecuting Assange.

However bringing up Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria (where Russia is inflaming the situation too), and Yemen is whataboutism. The discussion was about Russia's shitty record on press freedom.

But if we are trying to dig into the current conflict, the US hasn't invaded anyone for territorial expansion in a long fucking time. Russia has recently invaded Ukraine three times, Chechnya twice, and Georgia.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#298

Post by frabbit »

ch4s3 wrote: post #297
frabbit wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely in agreement. But it's important to note that we have more power over what happens to Assange than we do over Russia. Empty condemnation of Russia while we simultaneously prosecute the publisher of information which helps us decide whether we are behaving in an immoral manner is not merely hypocritical: it's corrosive of the fundamentals of our society. Right now the Afghans, Iraqis and Syrians that we mur…

You can walk and chew gum at the same time as the expression goes. I've written to representatives specifically about cutting off arms and intelligence to the Saudi effort in Yemen, and as I said I'm against prosecuting Assange. However bringing up Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria (where Russia is inflaming the situation too), and Yemen is whataboutism. The discussion was about Russia's shitty record on press freedom. But if…

I don't care if the US "invaded anyone for territorial expansion" or did it for shits'n'giggles. It has done all the above and more which weakens any chance that calls for democracy, international order, peace, stability and trade can work.

The US is deeply disruptive to any of that happening because it opens the door to the MiniMe despots being able to claim that spending stupid amounts of GDP on weapons and having a "strong leader" is the only thing which will see them safe from being invaded "not for territorial expansion" during a "long fucking time".

That's why it is appropriate, relevant and not simply whataboutism.

Russia and other states are worse than the USA because they need to be in order to claw their way up the dungheap piled up by US foreign policy. And there is little inherent in US norms or culture which would prevent similar anti-democratic and anti-liberal punishments. To back to the OP: these are all shades of authoritarianism and we see calls all over the media and this very forum in favor of censorship, war and other stupidities.

Don't kid yourself, this isn't whataboutism, it's the very subject under discussion: Russia is violating international agreements and norms and in part this is because the USA has shat all over those for a very long time.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#299

Post by labawi »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #201
EtherTyper wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or for a more concrete example, look at how both Republicans and Democrats are treating Julian Assange. Investigative journalism and whistleblowing are under attack by all political factions and by the justice system, today. We cannot treat anti-free-press authoritarianism in the West as an "early stage" or tomorrow's problem.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/wikileaks-founder-charged-sup... > In 2010, Assange gained unauthorized access to a government computer system of a NATO country. In 2012, Assange communicated directly with a leader of the hacking group LulzSec (who by then was cooperating with the FBI), and provided a list of targets for LulzSec to hack. > Assange conspired with Army Intelligence Analyst Chelsea Manning to crack a pas…

If that is the height of his crimes, then it's no comparison to the extent US (or whomever) went to frame him for: sexual assault (coerced charges), fabricated hacking conspiracy (from a protected pedofile at that), or just about anything.

Note that even in the quoted allegations he pretty much didn't actually even do much at all. I don't know Assange, but I don't have doubts about who to side with.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#300

Post by ComradePhil »

ashwagary wrote: post #246
shagmin wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chelsea Manning may be a better comparison since the US actually sentenced her, but even then that was about a leak with classified information rather than just punishing the press for being critical of the government. And she was arrested and served time (7 years?) and then got out, while coming out as transgendered (imagine going through that in Russian prison). It's not ideal, but it could be taken as an example o…

Whistleblowers are not safe anymore, government abuse is being protected.

The facts that whistleblowers are as well-known as they are, shows that whistleblowers are safer than they have ever been in history.
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