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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

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Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#291

Post by cheese_goddess »

ornornor wrote: post #225
ComputerGuru wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> though I eat a lot of eggs and some dairy still. See, I feel like this just erodes from your argument. There’s not necessarily any trauma at all to the chickens or the cows involved in the production of eggs or milk. Trying to group that with the consumption of meat feels just very irrational.

Yes there is. Egg farms grind male chicks alive. They burn off the tip of the hens beak without anesthesia (which we know is high in nerves) so they don’t fight each other in captivity; which they don’t do nearly as much in nature because surprise surprise they’re not as stressed. Hens laying eggs every single day of their lives (because they’re taken away daily) live much much shorter lives and develop physiological…

> Not to mention cheese which need casein to be made and that can’t be obtained without killing cows as it’s the acid in their stomach, basically.

Casein is not the acid in animals' stomachs. Caseins are one group of proteins in milk, and the main component of cheese.

You're probably thinking of rennet, the enzymes in animals' stomachs that help them digest their milk.

Rennet is used to coagulate milk to make cheese, but in modern cheesmaking practice the vast majority of it is produced by bacterial or fungal fermentation. Rennet taken from the stomachs of young ruminants is used only by a minority of "artisanal" or traditional producers.

Since you got this one completely wrong, is there a chance that the rest of the information in your comment is also slightly off, do you think? Would you find it very hard to re-examine the source of what you know about animal agriculture and try to find out how much of it is really true?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#292

Post by Accacin »

infectoid wrote: post #266
ogig wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

I'm trying to cut meats out of my diet slowly. All seafood was easy as I was never that into it. Pig meat on the other hand... Bacon, Ham, Pork, etc. I knew that it had to go. So I started with that. Currently I'm an opportunitarian. Chicken is the meat of choice if I can't handle the vegetarian option, otherwise beef. But pig and all seafood is gone from my diet. My hope is that plant-based or cultured meat improves…

I at least appreciate your attempts! I'm completely plant-based, but I'm firmly with you that making meat a "sometimes" food is a great idea.

I think a lot of people nowadays seem to be completely one side or the other on a range of topics and it doesn't need to be so clear cut.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#293

Post by kuhewa »

meerita wrote: post #273
ogig wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

So you're saying you're ok eating dumber animals and leave the intelligent ones alive. Interesting…

Yeah, I don't totally get equating greater intelligence with greater capacity to suffer.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#294

Post by CallMeJim »

afarviral wrote: post #185
markdown wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extremely intelligent? Have you worked with cattle before?

I have. Extremely intelligent might be a stretch, but a little. Certainly curious, emotional and social. Id rate them at the level of cats, dogs and pigs. My cat is dumb as fuck, no way she could outsmart a cow.

Dogs and pigs can be trained.

Cats can, to a certain degree.

Cows? Not so much. I wouldn't rate them at the same level as cats, dogs and pigs (source: farming background).

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#295

Post by leobg »

mtoohig wrote: post #155
gfody wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you really compare cows to octopuses? are there even wild cows?

Where I am in Vanuatu in the south Pacific we have wild cows in the bush. Originally, these cows would have been domestic but escaped and they raise their young in the bush and now people hunt wild cows. Cows are usually kept by a rope around their neck tied to a tree and every couple days move the cow to a new area to let them access fresh vegetation. There are also some big plantations for coconuts and these usuall…

I didn’t know Vanuatu was actually that big. It looks like just that thin strip of land on the map.

BTW, I just find it fascinating to be talking to someone from Vanuatu here. HN rocks.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#296

Post by atdrummond »

patrec wrote: post #284
atdrummond wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am mainly a vegetarian, although I will eat ethically raised eggs and dairy products. I grew up in farm country and will also, on a very rare occasion, eat cattle raised on a proper farm/ranch - even though I absolutely love cows, who can be extremely affectionate, I believe they can be slaughtered relatively humanely. Cephalopods, on the other hand, are extremely difficult to farm in the wild or cull. They show im…

> going as far to tear off limbs or kill others/commit suicide. Not to distract to much from your wider point, but I was under the impression that most species of octopi are solitary and it was not uncommon for them to kill and even eat each other on encounters even when not captured for slaughter. Is that not the case?

This is absolutely true - but the immediacy and severity of these attacks when being "farmed" in the wild is brutal and very much unlike the occasional attacks in the wild, which aren't necessarily nearly as fatal nor as likely to result in loss of limb(s).

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#298

Post by atdrummond »

kuhewa wrote: post #293
meerita wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying you're ok eating dumber animals and leave the intelligent ones alive. Interesting…

Yeah, I don't totally get equating greater intelligence with greater capacity to suffer.

Personally, if I have to eat an animal, I'd much rather focus first and foremost on eating the creature that has been killed in as painless, immediate and stressless a way as possible. If choosing between meat options that all have been relatively humanely slaughtered, then I might start to look at other factors such as intelligence or environmental impact of a particular species being raised for food.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#299

Post by kuhewa »

KerryJones wrote: post #7

I've had several people in my life tell me after more intense studies of octopi they refuse to eat them. While I've seen a couple of documentaries on the subject, I won't profess to know as much, but the essential argument has been that they're extremely intelligent, emotional animals. It's akin to eating a dog or cat (which might be acceptable in some parts of the world, but pretty shunned in the west). It's convinc…

Dogs and cats are companion animals, incidentally and intentionally selected to have behavioural phenotypes that make them amenable to that role. A wild octopus isn't quite the same. I've had quite a few marine animals in captivity and while octopus are intelligent, I think a bit too much is being made of some of these anecdotes relative to that. For example, small freshwater crayfish which I don't think anyone would argue have the intelligence of a pig or octopus still display the interindividual difference in personalities, preferences etc in a tank.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#300

Post by genericlogic »

jamiek88 wrote: post #233
kodah wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way, it applies to dogs too. I have the privilege of giving my dog a way out of pain: I can put them down. That decision rests with me, and ultimately, one day, I will have to make it. I may choose every day to feed my dog the best diet I can afford, I'll give her massages, I'll snuggle her, care for her when she's sick, but ultimately, one day, I know I will have the choice to spare her the pain of dying a pain…

One of my great regrets in life so far is shirking that responsibility and selfishly allowing a dog to last too long. I’ve learned from it and since had to make that decision again and actually made a decision this time but the guilt remains. It’s a dreadful responsibility.

While I don't know you or your dog - imagine for a moment if you could talk to your dog one last time and tell them the regret you feel. Do you think they would want you to regret the end, or remember all the love before that day?

In all my experience with dogs (and animals in general), one of the many lessons they have taught me is forgiveness. Both of others and myself.

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