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Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

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Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#291

Post by marcan_42 »

BTCOG wrote: post #185
CoastalCoder wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Perhaps the U.S.'s legal framework reasonably allows this kind of behavior, but IMHO it's a sign that the framework needs legislative correction. The first time I encountered this was when Sony advertised Linux-compatibility for the PS3, which I bought expressly for that purpose. I was shocked when a judge upheld Sony's post-sale removal of that capability.

This is precisely the reason why prior to linux support/removal, exploits weren't targeted. Once linux support was removed, linux hackers started releasing exploit after exploit on the target hardware and software, and it only took a couple months after they removed the linux support.

Upon which we found out that not supporting Linux on the PS3 slim from the get go "because they wanted to focus on games and it was too much effort" was a lie - turns out there was almost nothing extra that needed to be done for it to work on that model too, once the hacks were in place.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#292

Post by rurp »

ijidak wrote: post #280

On October 28, I bought the NordicTrac T-Series for $650. After installation, it had a lock screen asking me to subscribe to start using the treadmill! Can you imagine? I paid for the treadmill, and you're telling me I can't even walk on it without paying you again? So what did my $650 pay for?!? If I can't use a device's most basic function without paying an additional subscription, then can Amazon label the button…

Have you considered returning it and buying a different one? There are plenty of treadmills out there without this user hostile nonsense that would make better use of your purchase money.

As a total aside, I bought a treadmill last year and turned it into a walking desk as part of my WFH setup. I wasn't sure how much I would use it, but holy cow I love it!

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#293

Post by salawat »

gorjusborg wrote: post #227
hfsh wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without my consent Not having read the TOS of the platform (or even ever having used it), I'll hazard a guess this isn't quite legally true.

Not sure if you are intending to, but that only further illustrates how broken (in the favor of corporations) the current legal environment is. You are right in that there probably is a gotcha, you agreed clause in the text that is displayed after I have purchased the item. I also think the idea that is legally binding a farce. Imagine how popular buying things would be if people actually had to read those agreements…

>Imagine how popular buying things would be if people actually had to read those agreements.

If you ever wondered why your elders are such sticks in the mud on this sort of thing, that is exactly why. Put a contract in front of most people and off they run for the hills.

This is why the click through EULA was the best thing to ever happen to the legal profession.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#294

Post by Sebb767 »

tharkun__ wrote: post #249
brokenmachine wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely. TV updates are another thing. They change things with abandon and you can't revoke the updates. Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pray and wait until they hopefully fix them at their leisure. IMO, it should be illegal to issue unrevokable updates so you can't get a product to have identical features as it did at the time of purchase. You should always be able to wipe it back to stock. Same w…

That's exactly why I personally try to stay away from as many of these things/devices as I can reasonably do. TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV…

> TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV any day!

I've looked into this, but this option is really not great, either:

- Large Monitors are unavailable or (if you use business monitors) a lot more expensive and usually don't have latest panel tech.

- You'll loose surround sound and also 4K on most platforms

- The integration is usually worse (you'll have to start more devices, if you're lucky CEC decides to work)

- Good luck with HDR

I personally settled for a SmartTV behind a PiHole-equivalent, but an Apple TV or an Android TV combined with an offline smart TV are good contenders, too. Unfortunately, there's really no silver bullet right now.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#295

Post by cowpig »

spiderice wrote: post #284
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #27

Not the first time a company has pushed an update that removes important features. To my knowledge the first high-profile instance of this was when Sony updated the PS3 to remove Linux support, which resulted in a successful class-action in the US. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS

I feel like that was actually a fairly legitimate removal by Sony. Sony was selling the consoles at a loss in order to make money on the games. People were taking advantage by buying cheap Linux computers, never allowing Sony to recoup money from the initial sale. I don't have much sympathy for the people abusing the system in this particular case. Probably an unpopular opinion around here.

I see your definition of "legitimate" is "in their own best interest regardless of legal or moral legitimacy"

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#296

Post by somebodythere »

CrendKing wrote: post #285

The "right-to-repair" sentiment is totally understandable, as the article says. However, on the other hand, imagine some user modified the underlying Android, which caused the treadmill to run unstoppably, which end up injuring him. He then sues the company for millions of dollars. If I were the owner of the company, I would rather losing some customers than sleeping on a ticking bomb. Their move is also understandab…

That person would not win the lawsuit.

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#297

Post by greysphere »

gorjusborg wrote: post #17

This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices. If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. I experienced this myself on the PS4 version of Terraria. I bought a hard-copy of the game. I mastered the controls, and loved them. Terraria was updated one day…

If you bought a physical disk version, why not just reinstall it?

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#299

Post by openknot »

spiderice wrote: post #284
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #27

Not the first time a company has pushed an update that removes important features. To my knowledge the first high-profile instance of this was when Sony updated the PS3 to remove Linux support, which resulted in a successful class-action in the US. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS

I feel like that was actually a fairly legitimate removal by Sony. Sony was selling the consoles at a loss in order to make money on the games. People were taking advantage by buying cheap Linux computers, never allowing Sony to recoup money from the initial sale. I don't have much sympathy for the people abusing the system in this particular case. Probably an unpopular opinion around here.

>People were taking advantage

>I don't have much sympathy for the people abusing the system

I disagree with the premise that it's unethical to use a product I purchase and own from a for-profit company for a use that turned out not to be profitable for it. Note that it wasn't much of a hack; Sony sold consoles with the option to install another operating system from its menu [0].

Since the move was so unprofitable to it, Sony should not have offered the option to users in the first place. But since it happened, executives at Sony then just decided that it made business sense for Sony to disable the option in a firmware update.

I just don't understand the framing where it's as if Sony did a favor for its customers who then "took advantage," when Sony just miscalculated a business policy to serve its own self-interest.

[0] https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/sony-settles-over-insta...

Re: Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

#300

Post by Sebb767 »

rurp wrote: post #258
yyyk wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are reasons behind updates and auto-updates. Bugs, features, users which did not consistently update and were left with insecure or buggy software. Then again, updates are also a mess. I think this is a problem which should have a mostly technical solution: If most software was updated as today and users could rollback at will, most problems would be solved. That's a better way than making updates illegal.

Companies could unbundle security patches from UX updates if they wanted to. For the software I use regularly, I pretty much always want security updates and never want UI/UX changes. Of course the incentives are totally out of whack, since bundling the updates is cheaper and many UX "improvements" exist to make the company more money, at the expense of the user. Once users are conditioned or forced to auto-update wh…

In a lot of software I worked with, unbundling core and UI would've been an immense amount of effort. You basically have the option to either maintain two GUIs side-by-side - including integrating new concepts (think, for example, supporting OTP and creating the workflow) and updating both for datastructure changes - or you never update your UX at all. At worst, you end up in a situation where your two GUIs support a distinct set of features.

You can correctly accuse companies of a lot of things, but decoupling the UX really is a very hard problem.

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