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More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

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Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#291

Post by iskander »

standardUser wrote: post #234
xhkkffbf wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're thinking of 20 years ago. Most state schools are easily $20k for in state students once you add in the room and board. Then they try to get $50k from the out-of-staters. Top flight state schools like Michigan, Cal Berkeley and Cornell start at $75k+ for out-of-staters. Of course financial aid does enter the picture for many students.

No, I am not thinking of twenty years ago, I accurately stated the cost of tuition today, which generally does not include renting a place to live, on-campus or otherwise, or a meal plan.

I went to UIUC and paid ~$6k / year in-state (not including living costs). That has now increased dramatically to ~$20k/year. And, obviously, you still have to pay for living costs while you're a student and the part-time jobs typically available to you don't pay very much.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#292

Post by sokoloff »

epistasis wrote: post #284
sokoloff wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interest rate on something that is entirely uncollateralized and granted to someone with no income and often no credit history nor assets is usurious at a rate of around 2x that of an owner-occupied house with 20% down, an income of >3x the monthly payments, and a 740+ credit score? That is quite far from obvious to me.

If they have to make it undischargable in bankruptcy, that is a pretty big clue that the loan is usurious, IMHO.

How much money would you personally be willing to lend to a high school senior with no collateral, no credit, and no job who plans to study for 4 years and then file for bankruptcy?

That’s why they’re not discharged in bankruptcy: to make them possible to be made en masse.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#293

Post by parkingrift »

Most of the comments here are attributing this to costs, but that isn't clearly true (at all) from the article. This seems to be the result of a long term downward trend in enrollment which has rapidly accelerated during the pandemic. The fact that it has accelerated so rapidly during the pandemic is not likely due to costs, but due to other factors.

The article itself posits that it is tangentially related to costs as kids are choosing to work rather than pay for school. However, that association feels pretty shaky and doesn't hold up to scrutiny as to why these changes accelerated so rapidly during the pandemic.

I don't have a data-driven answer, either. However, my guess would be that students are uninterested in an online college experience and don't see the value in spending to attend a lucrative school so that they can then sit at home on their laptop. If I had to bet I would guess that enrollment ticks back once all these restrictions are abandoned.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#294

Post by nyolfen »

ejb999 wrote: post #220
roody15 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is indeed interesting. Most major universities look to maximize adjunct faculty and honestly new professors make much less than you think. My point is I don’t think the money is going to university teaching staff at least…

Can't speak of all schools, but at my local state school (which I attended) - which as far as sports teams is way down on the list of being considered important (i.e. you'll never see them on TV), they constantly bringing in coaches making $1M/year, who then hire a bunch of assistant coaches making $200K a year etc - and then when the teams don't do well - like losing 80% of their games - they fire the coaches (payin…

this is a conscious calculation to attract alumni donations — people who are into their college teams donate more than others, and even more when the teams do well

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#295

Post by giaour »

vorpalhex wrote: post #215
samarama wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are student loans really such an issue? 85% of graduates have less than $50,000 in student loans. Paid off over 20 years, that’s really not much. https://www.rclco.com/wp-content/uploads/advisory-student-de... Additionally, those that have much higher loans are usually medical students who make $200,000/year at the entry level.

Part of the issue is that you can get these loans regardless your program. Chemical engineering? Here you go. Studying gay romances in 14th century literature? Yup, here's your 50k too. One of those people can pay that loan off in two years. One of them is likely never going to pay it off without a career change. Of course, we probably don't want loan officers picking what poor people can major in either.

The person studying gay romances in 14th century literature is probably a PhD student with a stipend and full tuition remission. They're getting subsidized by MBA tuition dollars, not by loans.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#296

Post by jeffalbertson »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

in addition to cost, there is also a feeling I didn't get ANY value from the curriculum. Some majors are great but many give you 0 skills for the real world. I majored in communications cause I had no idea what I wanted to do in life. By the time I figured out I loved software, I had graduated.

The best lessons I learned in college were off campus and developing my social skills (which is important).

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#297

Post by bargle0 »

VikingCoder wrote: post #169
bagacrap wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

Administration salaries and buildings. Just because that new building cost $200M, it doesn’t mean the guy’s name who’s on it donated all of that.

Where football coaches have very large salaries (EDIT: compared to peer schools), those salaries are paid by athletic department revenue and boosters.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#298

Post by 9dev »

mistrial9 wrote: post #224
9dev wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". It's enough to assume elites were greedy (and/or dense) and didn't consider long-term effects, you don't even need a decades-spanning conspiracy for it. The elites won't be as fine once they realise much of their wealth stems from the rest of the republic, but that seems to be the circle humanity is caught in for eternity.

it is my vague impression from history that in real yet slow-moving crisis, those that are able to command and control high-value resources do in fact continue to thrive while others fail in increasing numbers. This works, until it doesn't, to make a cute phrase, because in dynamic systems, either the system re-stabilizes in a new and different composition, or there is sudden, increased failure.

If I understood you correctly, you're describing the efficiency-resilience problem: A system that is efficient is highly specialised for their environment, and thus susceptible to failure if the environment changes; a system that is resilient will not be as efficient, but can adapt to a changing environment.

This seems to apply to all kinds of things - people, organisations, software, religions.

I guess as often in live, balance is important here :)

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#299

Post by mdavis6890 »

bagacrap wrote: post #71
ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

Yes, exactly. One way to help college-age kids go to college if they want to without having the impact that you describe is to just give everybody ages 18-22 $20k per year in cash to do what they like with it. This still preserves their incentive to choose wisely, compare prices and consider alternate options.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#300

Post by chasd00 »

VampireWillow wrote: post #166
bagacrap wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

Here in Canada the government simply dictates to universities how much they can charge. It seems beyond insane to me to do it any other way, seeing as our entire societies are dependent on getting enough people educated to perpetuate a service economy. To be fair, this kind of means that universities should be completely public. And although they are for all intents and purposes, in theory they are still non-governme…

with federally backed student loans the US government has told universities here they can charge as much as they want.
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