Are jobs obsolete? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#291

Post by 5hoom » Thu, Sep 08, 2011, 3:29 AM UTC

mdda wrote: post #289

nitrogen wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe I have discussed education issues on here with you in the past. Suffice it to say, I believe you are sorely mistaken. 1. Proportions of taxes can shrink or grow at any rate independent of inflation. This doesn't say that the absolute value given to education per student (and that's the measure that matters) has or has not exceeded inflation. 2. Statistics saying that e.g. yy % of students do not benefit fro…

While I'm sympathetic to the plight of teachers (my mother was a physics teacher, FWIW), I still can't shake the fact that education spending per student is higher in the US than in most of the rest of the world : http://mercatus.org/publication/k-12-spending-student-oecd Something doesn't add up.

I think that looking at overall spending per-student as a metric for the quality of education is about the same as using lines-of-code as a metric for the quality of a developer.

Sure it's important, but it gives only a very small piece of the overall picture.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#292

Post by rphlx » Thu, Sep 08, 2011, 3:30 AM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #273

reader5000 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The critics say this time is different, this time there will be no new jobs, and we should urge people to find something other to do than working. The critics are wrong. Don't worry people. Employment is here to stay. I mean this is hand-waving as well. You havent actually provided any substantive counter-argument other than bring up the Luddites. I think the basic argument that at some point, possibly already past…

I personally think the much bigger question is how do we allocate the profits. As it could rapidly go very wrong with a miniscule few controlling the vast majority of the income. And a massive income gap developing. Kinda like what's already happening...

That was a risk in the early 80s. It's pretty much an undisputed reality today.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#293

Post by spc476 » Thu, Sep 08, 2011, 3:31 AM UTC

jcarden wrote: post #138

ippisl wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without some regulation , why would the work week become shorter ? for many people , working a 40 hour work week barely covers their expenses. why would they want to work less ?

The 40 hour work week barely covers their expenses because time is an arbitrary metric being used to derive some sort of implicit value on labor. The unit of measure needs to change.

The 40 hour work week exists because Henry Ford found through studies that productivity increased when employees worked no more than 8 hours/day, 40 hours/week. That was assembly line work in the early 20th century, and since then, I'm not aware of any other studies done about worker productivity and the amount of time worked.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#294

Post by piguy314 » Thu, Sep 08, 2011, 3:35 AM UTC

gills wrote: post #167

We start by accepting that food and shelter are basic human rights. The work we do -- the value we create -- is for the rest of what we want: the stuff that makes life fun, meaningful, and purposeful. So...nobody creates value (or performs work, for that matter) growing the food or building the shelters, right? Riiiiight... Magical thinking at it's best.

No you tax productive activity to pay farmers to grow food (see SNAP/food stamp program).

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#295

Post by rphlx » Thu, Sep 08, 2011, 3:36 AM UTC

mdda wrote: post #289

nitrogen wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe I have discussed education issues on here with you in the past. Suffice it to say, I believe you are sorely mistaken. 1. Proportions of taxes can shrink or grow at any rate independent of inflation. This doesn't say that the absolute value given to education per student (and that's the measure that matters) has or has not exceeded inflation. 2. Statistics saying that e.g. yy % of students do not benefit fro…

While I'm sympathetic to the plight of teachers (my mother was a physics teacher, FWIW), I still can't shake the fact that education spending per student is higher in the US than in most of the rest of the world : http://mercatus.org/publication/k-12-spending-student-oecd Something doesn't add up.

Perhaps the real metric should be spending per administrator.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#296

Post by jbooth » Thu, Sep 08, 2011, 3:40 AM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #195

jbooth wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, FWIW, urban low-income districts typically get more money per pupil than suburban ones. Why and where it goes is a much longer discussion than I have time to get into, but it's basically personnel and specialists.

I'm interested in reading more about it, if you know of links or sources off hand.

I don't actually, just from memory from my time in MA a few years ago, suburban districts would be in the 7-10k per pupil range while urban would be more like 10-14k.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#297

Post by wtallis » Thu, Sep 08, 2011, 4:40 AM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #175

gills wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you commented to someone else in an earlier branch, carry that out a few steps; why might healthcare costs rise so much faster than any reasonable measure of the output which funds both education and healthcare?. I don't know the answer. I think the point is that "health care" cannot be pointed out as the root cause, much as "markets" cannot be pointed out as the only solution.

Healthcare can indeed be pointed to as the primary cause of cost inflation in education, because, well, it is. Don't take my word for it. Go to your local town/city hall and pull the budgets for the last decade, then scan the line items. Unless your locality has something very different going on than everywhere else, you'll see huge increases in healthcare costs and cost-cutting relative to inflation everywhere else.

I think the point is that healthcare costs can't be the cause, because they are just a symptom of a broken healthcare market. The actual cost of medical supplies and doctor salaries isn't astronomical, but the price that employers and patients pay is. That disconnect, due to a lack of a sufficient combination of market forces and regulation, is what's bankrupting the country. Saying that healthcare costs are the problem is stopping short, and puts the attention where it can't actually fix things.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#298

Post by crux_ » Thu, Sep 08, 2011, 4:54 AM UTC

Spyro7 wrote: post #209

Why is this being upvoted? This article begins with a questionable premise and then descends straight into misinformation. The problems in the USPS did not begin with email. They began with a highly questionable requirement that the USPS fund a plan to fully cover the estimated future health care costs of all current employees. They are the only government institution required to do this, and it has crippled their ab…

I disagree.

Your belief that "new jobs take their place" will only remains true so long as increases in demand can keep pace with productivity: Sure, there's more demand out there in the developing world, but demand is finite in a way that productivity increases are not.

If we're not turning that particular corner today, we will someday; and from that point forth, there will be an inexorable decline in employment.

What happens then?

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#299

Post by crux_ » Thu, Sep 08, 2011, 5:17 AM UTC

akg_67 wrote: post #75

silverbax88 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to sound condescending (although I'm sure I will), but your theory about the future has already happened, and collapsed, in other countries: USSR and China being two prominent recent examples.

China didn't collapses, only USSR did. China learnt from USSR collapse and now showing the world how to grow while maintaining control. Chaillete's future seems a possibility. Provide a basic level of necessities but beyond that you will need to earn your way. Isn't that's what Chinese are doing? Whether communism or capitalisms, both extremes are bad as both results in concentration of power in the hands of a few

Further... that's what the article was suggesting, too, although without the totalitarian overtones: "We start by accepting that food and shelter are basic human rights."

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#300

Post by ChuckMcM » Thu, Sep 08, 2011, 5:39 AM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #271

ChuckMcM wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I'm less willing to generalize than you are that the roots are an 'anti-education' culture. It hasn't been my experience that these 'slackers' (for lack of a better term) are disproportinally represented by any specifically identifiable group. They express a common 'you can't make me do this' kind of attitude but beyond that much of the correlation seems to fall off. There is clearly a 'too cool for school' f…

Check my response to your sister comment: someone did actually do a controlled experiment. Engagement went up a great deal. The anti-education culture definitely isn't isolated to minorities; it's spreading through the broader culture. Perhaps it was always there, its just recently it's becoming so not having a good education is a life sentence of menial dead end jobs so its getting more attention. Although I would d…

Thanks for the link, I was also looking at some work that was recently published about measuring peoples ability to forego reward. There appears to be a genetic component.

This is a bit harsh I hope " its just recently it's becoming so not having a good education is a life sentence of menial dead end jobs" I certainly try to support programs that facilitate people furthering their education and 'catching up' as it were. I've heard great things about programs like Homeboy Industries [1] which try to give people a chance to take a different road.

[1] http://homeboy-industries.org/index.php/about-us