Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates • Hacker News Board

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#291

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #249

cies wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banning health care providers from abortion would be unconstitutional. Forcing care workers to take a medicine against their will is constitutional you say? All medical procedures should be voluntary, or we go back to the times of lobotomy and forced sterilizations of minorities (and that's not as many decades back as you may think). > Government can and has jailed and/or fined people for not getting a vaccine. Thi…

You're aware that we've had vaccine mandates for decades, right? Were you also upset about requiring kids get (for example) MMR vaccines before allowing them to attend public school? If so, then congratulations: some diseases we'd thought we'd eradicated have been coming back because of anti-vax nutjobs. You are not an island. You live in a society, a community of people that requires individuals to give up some pers…

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Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#292

Post by kelnos » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #234

verall wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the chance of a net neutrality bill making it through the Senate is roughly equivalent to guessing Satoshi's wallet. We can barely pass debt ceiling increases to avoid national default. The net neutrality PR did work though, the FCC was under a lot of pressure . ATT didn't pay all of those marketing firms to fraudulently post thousands of anti-net-neutrality comments for nothing.

OK, but then the answer is to fix Congress, not to bypass it.

And what if it is fundamentally unfixable? Do we just allow everything to grind to a halt and pretend that everything is working as designed as the country crumbles beneath us? I guess that's easier to do when it's the working class and not most HN-type folks who would get hit the hardest by that plan.

Congress has been delegating rule-making authority to the executive branch since before all of us were born. You may not like that, or you may think some amount of delegation is appropriate, but we've passed that point. But this is the reality here, and the functioning of our federal government pretty much has this baked in at this point, for better or worse.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#293

Post by odessacubbage » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #263

odessacubbage wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>checklists have always existed this is also the first time where the vaccine industry and the broader public health space have been put under this kind of scrutiny and the combination of politicization, outright lies and deception over masks and policy in both directions and the overall visibility of the sausage making process happens to be occurring alongside a decline of trust in institutional expertise. when most…

I don't think you can argue that it's the medical profession's fault that this issue has become politicized without acknowledging that the GOP deserves most of the blame here. Nearly every common-sense measure implemented during this pandemic has been derided by the right as some sort of unacceptable infringement on individual rights. Not saying those in power have gotten it all right 100% of the time; I'm especially…

frankly there is plenty of blame to go around among partisans starting with the complete and total looting of our pandemic response capabilities that occurred during the obama years or the bipartisan offshoring of nearly all our capacity to produce medical supplies and allowing consolidation to make hospitals utterly brittle in the face of a crisis. the lies and poor decisions are numerous enough from all sides that it really is not interesting to play the blame game about who is worse, residents of either team will always believe their lies were noble and mistakes justified while the 'other' is the source of all the real problems. the end result is the same, efficacy and legitimacy of administrators has cratered and i cannot honestly blame anyone who does not trust these institutions to act in good faith anymore.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#294

Post by Notanothertoo » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

petesergeant wrote: post #30

bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

> You can agree that its within the federal authority to mandate vaccines, but it really should be a decision made and explicitly endorsed by elected representatives rather than some agency I'm from a country (UK) where parliament has absolute power, but also where the populace largely trusts the civil service. Health decisions, prosecution decisions, and so on are explicitly devolved from the government so that they…

In London they are taking butter knifes from people and bragging about it on social media.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#295

Post by cmh89 » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

tastyfreeze wrote: post #241

driverdan wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forcing care workers to take a medicine against their will is constitutional you say? They are not forced. They can choose to find another job if they don't want it.

Coercion is force. Being told to vaccinate or get fired is not a choice it is coercion.

Is being told to wear clothes or get fired coercion? Do you find that acceptable?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#296

Post by disambiguation » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

docflabby wrote: post #169

If we can't convince medical workers to recieve a vaccine from their peers we are doing something wrong.

whether you think its right or wrong, its apparently not without precedence

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/flu-vaccine-requir...

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#297

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

jeremyjh wrote: post #62

teeray wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that’s the loophole. What’s happening here is yet another end-run around the democratic process. People are tired of emergency powers, executive orders, and delegated authority being used to enact some of the most impactful laws of our time. We want the Schoolhouse Rock version of law-making because we at least get something of a say in it.

I don’t think you understand the role of regulatory agencies in our government.

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Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#298

Post by beerandt » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

sjwalter wrote: post #272

aixi wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you're being disingenuous, but health care workers is a very wide group of people; most probably have absolutely no idea about 'whats in this thing', and in my experience most doctors are vaccinated --- it's hospital staff that aren't.

The doctors here in Montana I've talked to about it are not exactly advertising it but are unvaccinated and have recommended to me to avoid the vaccine and one intimated it's insane to vaccinate children. So that's not the case with all doctors. Then again, I'm fit, healthy, great diet, low stress, eat well, lots of sunlight. Covid poses less risk to me than driving, my kids it doesn't rise to the level of conscious…

Also, it's not like doctors are doing it based on medical judgement.

Their jobs are being threatened too, and are more likely to have large debt from school and to be the primary breadwinner of their family than nurses.

Nurses just have more realistic freedom to say no.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#299

Post by chronofar » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

olliej wrote: post #282

chronofar wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convince or compel? Do you expect all healthcare workers to receive any widely prescribed treatment? Is there no room for dissent in your mind?

We require healthcare workers wash their hands. We require other vaccines. There is plenty of room for dissent, but it stops being “dissent” when it is simply denying reality.

> There is plenty of room for dissent, but it stops being “dissent” when it is simply denying reality.

Ah yes of course, when the common view gets the label of “reality” dissent is no longer “dissent.” /s

If only everyone could see the line in the same place, but well if that were the case I don’t suppose there’d be any dissent at all.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

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Post by allturtles » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

orang2tang wrote: post #224

allturtles wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who took a biology class and paid attention could have told you that an efficacy-killing variant was an inevitability On what basis? It's proved impossible so far to make a strongly efficacious flu vaccine because of constantly shifting variants. But on the other hand, there are many examples of successful vaccines that have never had an efficacy-killing variant emerge (polio, smallpox, chicken pox). How wou…

Those vaccines are/were sterilizing, meaning the vaccinated person cannot carry or spread the illness after vaccination. Covid-19 Vaccines are non-sterilizing and only lessen-symptoms. As we can clearly see, vaccinated individuals still spread the virus. Not only that, but vaccinated individuals are an added evolutionary pressure for the virus, which causes the emergence of vaccine-evading variants. This means new va…

It's not that simple. The Salk polio vaccine did not prevent infection/transmission, but remained highly effective at preventing disease.

The initial studies on vaccine efficacy were designed to study efficacy at preventing serious illness, not transmission. So it was not known at the time how effective the vaccines would be on that dimension. To answer these questions requires novel research, it is not settled, freshmen biology knowledge.