Live data from Hacker News

The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

npr.org

291–300 of 339 posts

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHen I stopped living in the USA, I realized that there is only one reason the USA is behind the rest of the developed world when it comes to healthcare, a social safety net and education. The USA likes it that way. The American culture is one of rugged individualist pioneering cowboys who won't be told what to do, even if you're warning them that if they take another step they'll fall off a cliff.

In just what century did you live here?

Definitely a common mindset, particularly of gen x and generations prior. I know I have it. Wouldn’t surprise me a bit if someone born and raised outside the us came away with this impression after living here for a while.

Honestly when I read the headline my first thought was “six stitches? Crazy glue is cheaper…”

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#292
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plastic surgery and vision correction industries work pretty well in the US. You see price competition and patients have the ability to shop around and make choices that are important to them (references from other patients, doctor personality, etc). Now contrast that with going to a hospital for a procedure where you have time to shop around. Can you get a price? No. Can you easily get appointments with doctors…

Exactly the same situation is in rest of the world, no patient is shopping around. just goes usually to closest/biggest hospital. Yet we don't have this tragic mess US has. So its not about shopping around, rather some other reason like regulations, wrong dynamics between hospitals and insurances etc. You don't have better equipment nor doctors in US compared to biggest hospitals in Switzerland for example. Yet we ha…

I believe that "closest/biggest hospital" is a choice in emergency. Or when it's something unimportant. Otherwise people tend to choose a doctor and clinic based on reviews or recommendations, or maybe years of experience. Even with a free healthcare you still have a paid private medicine and a free public one. And they have to compete which leads the price going down, because one side is always zero or close to it. Not like it's in the US where the direction is opposite as you don't have a zero side but only "unbelievable high price" side.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#293

Why is the discussion in America always private VS nationalised healthcare instead of just making private healthcare value for money / less insane. Here in the UK we have the NHS which is great. But we ALSO have private insurance / hospitals / healthcare that is reasonably priced.

Those are the terms of the debate because it keeps people at each other's throats and prevents progress.

Divide and rule. Oldest trick in the book and still works well.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#294
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dentistry is paid for by insurance and is relatively cheap either way. Healthcare in the US is expensive for several reasons. Excessive paperwork and bureaucracy, unpaid bills, required service, 24/7/365 services, complex diagnosis, lawsuits, medical school, regulatory capture, etc etc. Changing any one of them isn’t going to fix pricing. We really need to change several pieces at the same time and the industry reall…

I’m pretty sure most of this is also what, say, EU has to deal with. They most certainly have bureaucracy, unpaid bills, 24/7/365 services, complex diasnosises…

Some big differences: Without the equivalent of AMA lobbying Europe has a lot more primary care doctors per capita than the US. No long history of trying to get everyone healthcare without using taxation resulting in a pile of Rude Goldberg regulations that nobody understands. Regular use of cost-benefit analysis in deciding what procedures or drugs to pay for, now that the FDA has approved aducanumab it's going to be available to people even though it probably doesn't work and is breathtakingly expensive.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#295
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same in Canada. My wife is due to give birth in 3 months. The biggest bill we're concerned about is the parking lot. I think it's $20/day. And if the parking fee was too much, I've heard that one can go talk to the reception desk and they'll open the gate for you. I would rather pay very slightly higher taxes and let all of my fellow Canadians have this benefit than be very sightly richer and live in a so…

Exactly! For me it is the peace of mind: not having to worry about deductibles... will it be covered? What hospital can I go to? Ambulance or uber... so much stress. On top of your ailment. I prefer to pay 35-40% in taxes and not have to worry about that. I worry about my work and my systems. They pay me for that. I pay my money so that I dont have to worry. Paying (a private insurer) to get additional worries? No th…

> I pay my money so that I dont have to worry

My view on money it that the purpose of money is to solve problems. My goal is not to have more money, it's to have less problems.

I live in a country where I do not ever have to think about how I will pay for my healthcare, which would be an enormous problem to have.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#296
post #2

Somehow everybody in this system claims they're not the ones making bank on this swindling. The doctors say they're underpaid. The hospital admin says they're underpaid. The insurance companies say they're barely covering their payouts. So who is lying?

Though in this case it is quite obvious that there are some parties making an obscene amount amount of money in healthcare, there are businesses where employees feel underpaid, owners lose money / break even, and customers believe they are overpaying, so no one is happy. Childcare is first example I can think of.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#297

Anecdata: I just had a very mild infection a month ago, but it went to my heart so I went to the ER (thinking they'd give me antibiotics and send me on my way). They wanted to monitor me for 2 days so admitted me. I know I have the right to refuse (and very nearly did), but wanted to make sure my heart was all right. Long story short, they gave me nothing more than aspirin for that stint, did an echo and an EKG, and…

How much did you pay in the end?

Well, I haven't paid yet ;) but the adjusted amount charged to my insurance was about $12.5k. I have a highish deductible plan but I have an HSA so after meeting deductible and maxing out my out of pocket limit the HSA is going to cover much of what remains (it's been accruing for 5 years and I never have medical expenses).

But I think it's completely insane we have to play these games with healthcare. Why does it have to feel like gambling and bartering!?

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#298

This is absurd. Even in a country with liberal economics and "free choice" health system (however with universal care, and state regulation), the same stitches in a world-class private clinic in Santiago, Chile would cost 400 USD, before insurance . The clinics there are not the ones Americans imagine from a middle-income country, most of them have better infrastructure and doctors than the ones I know in Europe. And…

> example of the benefits of free market economy Healthcare is rarely a good example of the free market. Medical decisions aren’t made by comparing costs between providers. And if you’re in rural America, you’re lucky if you have any provider. Price transparency would be nice, but maybe not as helpful as you’d like. Let’s say you’re in the middle of a rural area and the ER says you need stitches — but they cost $6000…

You've also got the Certificate of Need system, introduced in the Nixon years on the theory that if allowed hospitals to compete with each other it would lead to redundant capacity and thus higher costs.

And then there's the Medicaid reimbursement rates, decided by a committee using the labor theory of value rather than something sensible like cost benefit analysis and negotiation. And since it's illegal to charge someone else less than you charge Medicaid these tend to have a cascade effect.

Our healthcare system is a huge sequence of "make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies" legal systems with layers of ad hoc patches its amazing it works as well as it does.

Normally I'm in favor of free markets but if nationalization is what it takes to clean up the current mess of a system we have then so be it.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#299
post #148

Eliminate all political donations from non-humans. That is the biggest issue, thanks to Citizens United Ruling by Republican Supreme Court Appointees, people in the US votes have no power any more. As soon as someone gets elected the do not give a crap about the public. That is when money starts flowing to them in large amounts to push corporate agendas. Republicans are very good at this game, notice how they are abl…

> As soon as someone gets elected the do not give a crap about the public. This goes too far. Believing it is impossible for politicians to do the right thing is a counsel of despair that harms those who are trying to do the right thing and gives advantage to those that aren't. If you believe it is impossible for democratic action to provide good governance, what is your alternative?

I wish I knew, but one thing that should be fixed in the US is the Electoral College. The limit of 435 Reps skews the numbers.

House of Representatives is suppose to be 1 Rep per a fixed number of people. But Congress put a hard limit of 435, that means Small States have more people per Rep than Large States.

For example, Wyoming has 1 Rep for 480900 people.

California has 1 rep per 736000 people. To be fair and agree with the original intent of the US Constitution, California should have about 82 Reps instead of 53.

Texas for that matter should really have 52 Reps instead of 36 has it as now. The way it is now it has one rep per 700279 people.

This will even out things a bit and hopefully get come changes through.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#300
This is definitely a problem but the problem is not high deductible plans, its price transparency which distorts supply and demand and steers people to high cost emergency room medical care while unfairly shifting costs to those who choose more price transparent plans. And the article's charge calculation is dishonest, ignoring premium savings and insurance discounts in order to get a bigger headline grabbing number.

I had a high deductible plan and got snagged with a similar charge but not as large. Same deal, a walk-in by a family member to an emergency room cost over $2, 000, no treatment, simple 15 minute consult. They classified it as a level 4. I understand this is intended to offset overhead and also to discourage unnecessary walk-ins but really ? I argued with the hospital on the level 4 classification and the fact they never informed my family member how much it would cost them prior to (or even after) treatment. They would not budge and I held out until they threatened to send to collection at which point I gave in because it was easier to pay.Also I figured I saved as much on my high deductible plan and it was a lesson learned both to me and my family.

The article is not being up front with the cost calculation.

First, the family in the article likely saved thousands of dollars from their high deductible plan ( for example at the time I was saving at least $300 a month on my plan v lower deductible plan, a savings of $3600 a year in premium). I didn't see anywhere in the article where the premium savings was calculated and it certainly was not deducted from the headline number.

Second, included in the headline number is the unnegotiated undiscounted retail cost. No insured person pays that number. Buried in the article they note the true discounted cost, the "you pay" number which was negotiated by the insurance company as part of their deal with the hospital and passed on to the insured. Granted the discounted price is still outrageous, but it's much lower than the headline.

Third I believe the article fails to mention those with high deductible plans are able to put away the thousands they save on premiums (and more if they choose) in a health savings plan (similar tax advantages to a 529 for education or a 401k roth and similar investment choices of mutual funds, stocks, bonds, cash, etc. ) which is only available for those with high deductible plans and which can grow over a lifetime (this NOT forfeited each year like the medical savings accounts most people are familiar with).

In addition, most areas, and I would bet even in this rural area, there are private stand alone clinics that would have treated him for around $200 . The mistake is to walk in to a hospital emergency room for non-life or death situations, a problem that most people who are on low deductible plans do all the time, driving up artificial demand and real costs for everyone. Hospital emergency rooms are equipped with the most expensive personnel and equipment, they should not be used for non-life threatening problems.

One of the main problems with the American system ( other than government intervention which has royally misallocated resources, screwed with normal market driven supply and demand, and micromanaged health care production, supply, and delivery) is that no one knows how much it will cost given the complexity of the insurance.

Hospital emergency rooms need a simple menu-like sign at the door giving the out-of-pocket cost for common treatments and encouraging people to call their insurance company first and/or go to other clinics for non life threatening issues. The price transparency law that was passed a few years ago did little as it resulted in long lists of obscurely named procedures, usually in a pdf buried in the website.

And/or they should give a reasonable estimate to high deductibles and charge them a r$1000 or so in order to walk through the door, refunding any difference when they walk out.

In addition the low co-pay plans for emergency visits are obscuring the true cost to the hospital, encouraging unnecessary emergency room visits, and pushing these costs onto cash only and high deductible plans. High deductible plans should be encouraged legislatively, rather than demonized.

Also, instead of fighting the tendency of people to run to hospital emergency rooms, hospitals should run lower overhead, lower cost 24 hour clinics adjacent to the emergency rooms and informing people of cost/benefits of each.

While I appreciate this article pointing out the problem of emergency room costs, high deductible plans, are not the problem but one of the solutions to high medical costs. They can regularize supply and demand and increase price transparency.

Post reply on HN