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Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

wired.co.uk

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Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you may have had a very unorthodox childhood and may not realize it. No, my parents didn't have access to, or knowledge about my things. As soon as you entrust a child with a document, it is up to that child whether that document survives more than a few steps out of the classroom, let alone whether a parent ever knows about it. That is a very strong form of autonomy, important to a child's development…

We should leave them out on the hills to fend for themselves, feeding them will only make them weak! /s

You overdramatise the point, but yes!

You feed the toddler.

You pack and give food to the 5-10 year old. They feed themselves.

You supervise the 10-teenageish to gather/pack their own food.

After "teenageish" you do in fact leave them out on the hills to fend for themselves...

... and part of fending for yourself, is to know when to ask for help. But the terms of help is hopefully between two capable humans at that point.

In the school system, I would expect that teachers are not asking 5-10 year olds to do complicated tasks. But to do simple tasks outside of school hours (homework) and know how to dress on any given day is totally appropriate. Parents can assist their kid to be so organised as and how they can. But the kid themselves are responsible to the school if they aren't.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#292
post #22

The first thing that jumps out is Sweden has a national identity system, BankID. The APIs appear to be protected using those credentials. With that in mind I have two questions: 1. Who owns the data? 2. Should public funds be used for the creation of private APIs that manage the data? The answer to (1) has consequences for (2). I think many HN readers, including myself, and certainly these parents would argue that th…

Your medical records are the property of your doctor.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you may have had a very unorthodox childhood and may not realize it. No, my parents didn't have access to, or knowledge about my things. As soon as you entrust a child with a document, it is up to that child whether that document survives more than a few steps out of the classroom, let alone whether a parent ever knows about it. That is a very strong form of autonomy, important to a child's development…

When you let elementary school children fail constantly at easy tasks because they forgot about them it just instills in them that the grades don't really matter. Little children need the habit formation brought on by asking if their homework is done everyday, how they're doing in school, and if there are any upcoming projects because they just don't have the discipline at that age usually. As they get older these ch…

You seemed to reinforce the GPs point?

To do all the things you said, does not require me to have an itinerary app or sheet.

It requires me to ask my kid, be involved with my kid, support my kid to be organised.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#294
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law is not specific at all in regards to the format of the document. So to talk about an “API legally” has no meaning. In a private scenario it makes sense but what we are talking about here is public documents which are sent through an API. The city has responsibility to only send information I have (as a parent) legally right to see. How I parse it and present it is up to me as citizen (through an app or save i…

> How I parse it and present it is up to me as citizen I know technologists like to think that way but very often the law doesn't work like that. They will think about intent - was the intent to give you the raw data or was the intent to convey a specific representation of it that may omit some parts or further transform or presentation layer changes to achieve a different final result to what the raw data would have…

> convey a specific representation ... is the "public document" you have access to, not the raw data

Seems you're saying it might be illegal to convert a HTML file to PDF format, or to use a screen reader to read the text.

I wonder in which country you are (where apparently there can be laws like that)

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#295
Wait, I was told the Nordic governments are the pinnacle of governance and they can do no wrong. Was I misled? This sounds worse than local governments here in the US. Spending $117M and 5 years to put out something that doesn't work, and then fighting any attempts to fix the situation - if you didn't mention the country, most people would have just assumed it's us. :-)

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#296
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you have kids, I am guessing not, if I am wrong, my apologies. Knowing what your kids have due for school is not micromanaging its a core part of being a good parent. I know if my kid has a math test so it lets me sit down with him and review for his test, it allows me to ensure he knows the basis for whatever comes next in his curriculum. Terribly overbearing parents are not good but I think people a…

That's absolutely micromanaging and negative. The goal of school isn't just to pass the tests. If a kid fails to revise for a test, but it doesn't matter because their parent will just look up the schedule and force them to revise, then they learn nothing beyond what's in the test. If they fail to revise and as a result do badly at the test, then next time they might actually take the initiative and revise through th…

I see you and GP as arguing slightly different points.

I don't want an itinerary app. I don't want to know the schedule/homework directly.

But I will absolutely ask my kid if they know, and make the point that they should know, and work with them to remediate that if required.

And as they learn I will get to step back a bit at a time and let them go for it.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#297
post #73
post #22

The first thing that jumps out is Sweden has a national identity system, BankID. The APIs appear to be protected using those credentials. With that in mind I have two questions: 1. Who owns the data? 2. Should public funds be used for the creation of private APIs that manage the data? The answer to (1) has consequences for (2). I think many HN readers, including myself, and certainly these parents would argue that th…

(I am Christian Landgren, cofounder of the project) You are right, the city believes they have ownership of the data, mainly because they fail to understand that they aren’t showing data in an app, but rather publishing data in an API. In Swedish law, once you have released data from a government, the receiver have the right to do whatever they want with the that data (as long as it isn’t violating any other laws). T…

Well done! Both for the app and seeing the fight through. All of us would be lucky to have people as dedicated as you and your team in our cities.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#298
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, congrats on the app. I was curious about one thing in the article - why would the city pay to license the app when it is open source? Do you anticipate that this would be cheaper for them than them paying one of their overpriced contractors to build and publish an "official" version, given how much they spent on a CRUD app?

Thanks! Well we have already made the source code open and free and also encouraged the city to release an app with our source code as base. They weren’t interested in that. They would rather license the app, support and maintenance to us. We have quoted a fixed sum per month for that service and we plan to use that money to reimburse everyone sending PR:s we merge.

Sounds like a positive step forward, despite the grief they put you through! Ultimately it seems like democracy winning out, although sad to see the very institution that should support and endorse it acting as a gatekeeper.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#299
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How I parse it and present it is up to me as citizen I know technologists like to think that way but very often the law doesn't work like that. They will think about intent - was the intent to give you the raw data or was the intent to convey a specific representation of it that may omit some parts or further transform or presentation layer changes to achieve a different final result to what the raw data would have…

> convey a specific representation ... is the "public document" you have access to, not the raw data Seems you're saying it might be illegal to convert a HTML file to PDF format, or to use a screen reader to read the text. I wonder in which country you are (where apparently there can be laws like that)

Or even just print it out. Or put it in a binder. Or make it your desktop wallpaper. Or print it on your toilet paper rolls. Or make paper airplanes out of it. Hmmm it seems like this is a bit of a ridiculous argument. I highly doubt any free government would/could make it illegal for me to print the laws on toilet paper, downloaded via their API.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#300
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law is not specific at all in regards to the format of the document. So to talk about an “API legally” has no meaning. In a private scenario it makes sense but what we are talking about here is public documents which are sent through an API. The city has responsibility to only send information I have (as a parent) legally right to see. How I parse it and present it is up to me as citizen (through an app or save i…

Here's one possible issue though - I asked (in another sibling comment) if `ls` could be considered a filesystem API - I strongly believe it is. That means we probably (for sanity's sake) need to differentiate internal vs. external APIs and provide a method for safely allowing this public document method to be well defined. If a spy is filling out an expense report via secure email after an undercover mission to Norw…

In this particular example, It’s likely none of that would be digital (over the web) and it would be classified.
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