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Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

eurasianet.org

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Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#291

Post by notahacker »

cinntaile wrote: post #221
notahacker wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean by outcompeting is that if rich cryptominers are pricing poor Kazakhs out of an electricity supply which was perfectly fine before, I don't see how that counts as a win for their robustness and stability of power supply. And PoW crypto isn't like aluminium smelting. The value of aluminium smelting isn't in winning an arms race with other aluminium smelters based on how much power they consume, so if you b…

> What I mean by outcompeting is that if rich cryptominers are pricing poor Kazakhs out of an electricity supply which was perfectly fine before, I don't see how that counts as a win for their robustness and stability of power supply. The article doesn't mention any of that though. It says that the miners got cut off (rationed) because 3 coal plants were offline. The regulator is stepping in to make sure regular peop…

> The article doesn't mention any of that though. It says that the miners got cut off (rationed) because 3 coal plants were offline. The regulator is stepping in to make sure regular people and industries are prioritized.

The regulator has stepped in to ration to avoid cryptominers competing with the Kazakh poor for the electricity that is left over. That sounds like the power supply is less robust to me. (A quick google suggests the power companies are claiming the shutdowns were scheduled but the recent demand spikes weren't part of the plan...)

> Investments and innovation follow demand so now that demand has risen and assuming demand stays high, what should we expect will happen? This is not unique to crypto, it just happens to be the driving force here. Of course other industries can lead to similar outcomes. If you think this will not lead to innovation and investments, you are basically saying that cryptomining deviates from the norm and you would need to justify this claim.

I'm not sure why you're pretending I haven't already observed what's different about POW cryptomining (unlike other industries which tend to increase yields by consuming less energy per unit of output than the competition, miners seeking block rewards maximise yields by consuming more energy, which means they are highly incentivised to consume all increases in energy output at a given price) or indeed why you are claiming that the norm is for increase in demand to result in something becoming cheaper and more widely available (it invariably has the opposite effect in the short term, and usually in the long run too) in an attempt to shift the burden of proof onto me, but doesn't exactly create the impression that you are arguing in good faith.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#293

Post by AlexandrB »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #176
DonHopkins wrote: post #122

Don't ever let any Bitcoin or NFT shills get away with lying to you that their cryptocurrencies and CryptoKitties and Digital Pet Rocks run on renewable energy. And never let any of those get-rich-quick pyramid scheme shills get away without forcing them to openly admit that even though they're burning coal, wasting electricity, destroying the environment, causing climate change, cancer, and heart disease, they simpl…

I wonder how much coal China burned to fabricate all the computers necessary for you to post this and for everyone else to read it.

It's cliche at this point, but: https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/

I'm guessing since there are no hypocrites in crypto you are all using non-fiat "coins" to pay your bills and buy groceries, right?

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#294

Post by consumer451 »

njarboe wrote: post #284
paganel wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crypto-mining apologists will point to figures that say "crypto-mining uses mostly renewable energy". Which is a shit take anyway because that means that non-renewable energy (plus the renewable energy non-consumed by the miners) is now more expensive for everyone else, it's the basic law of supply and demand. And in the process those miners are also making non-renewable energy a more desirable investment because i…

If big crypto-mining syndacates start using small scale nuclear (as some have shown interest in doing) to be carbon neutral, they could be on the vangaurd of proving out the technology and be a net positive in the medium to long term. They really want low, consistent prices for electricity. Hydro gives them that but nuclear could also. Solar and wind do not.

> If big crypto-mining syndacates start using small scale nuclear...

Any volunteers for living in the exclusion zones?

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#295

Post by cinntaile »

notahacker wrote: post #291
cinntaile wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I mean by outcompeting is that if rich cryptominers are pricing poor Kazakhs out of an electricity supply which was perfectly fine before, I don't see how that counts as a win for their robustness and stability of power supply. The article doesn't mention any of that though. It says that the miners got cut off (rationed) because 3 coal plants were offline. The regulator is stepping in to make sure regular peop…

> The article doesn't mention any of that though. It says that the miners got cut off (rationed) because 3 coal plants were offline. The regulator is stepping in to make sure regular people and industries are prioritized. The regulator has stepped in to ration to avoid cryptominers competing with the Kazakh poor for the electricity that is left over. That sounds like the power supply is less robust to me. (A quick go…

You are making assumptions about what I write, if something is unclear simply ask and I will try to clarify my argument. I am not saying the norm for an increase in demand is to result in something becoming cheaper and more widely available. I am saying demand spurs investment and innovation. I am saying that this could have beneficial effects such as a more stable and robust electricity net as well as other societal benefits, since this is what we usually observe when investments are made and innovation happens. This is not unique to crypto mining, hence why expecting something else to happen would be outside the norm.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#296

Post by mr_spothawk »

eldaisfish wrote: post #108
bobcostas55 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy is not fungible. Just because you have electricity in place A doesn't mean you can get it to place B in a cost-effective way, so mining next to, say, a hydro station with spare capacity (where electricity is cheap) doesn't necessarily have any impact at all elsewhere.

What you must also mention is that electricity is a finite resource. Consuming electrical energy - even at a hydro power station - means the energy you used isn't delivered to somewhere else.

is electricity finite? i don't think so.

you might say that the grid can only support a certain load at a some given time, but obviously more energy could be provided.

in any case, i think it's silly to concern ourselves with (specifically Bitcoin's) energy consumption, as it's tiny compared to the efficiency gains that are realized elsewhere as a result of bitcoin's adoption.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#297

Post by philipkglass »

sudosysgen wrote: post #262
politician wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Sun is not a limited resource, not until we're a K2 civilization anyway -- and we're no where close to K2. The other materials in solar panels are abundant and reusable. There is plenty of unoccupied desert to build on. In what way are resources limited?

Hyper pure quartz for photovoltaic solar is limited.

Are you thinking of purified silicon? Silicon is made starting with quartz, quartzite, or similar minerals rich in silicon dioxide. Crude silicon always requires additional purification for solar uses after it's initially created, so the purity of quartz going into the electric furnace isn't critical.

You can see the process flow from raw materials to completed PV modules here:

http://oasis.mechse.illinois.edu/me432/ME432_L31_Nov4.pdf

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#298

Post by malermeister »

njarboe wrote: post #284
paganel wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crypto-mining apologists will point to figures that say "crypto-mining uses mostly renewable energy". Which is a shit take anyway because that means that non-renewable energy (plus the renewable energy non-consumed by the miners) is now more expensive for everyone else, it's the basic law of supply and demand. And in the process those miners are also making non-renewable energy a more desirable investment because i…

If big crypto-mining syndacates start using small scale nuclear (as some have shown interest in doing) to be carbon neutral, they could be on the vangaurd of proving out the technology and be a net positive in the medium to long term. They really want low, consistent prices for electricity. Hydro gives them that but nuclear could also. Solar and wind do not.

I keep reading that this or the other crypto thing had a design flaw that caused people to lose millions.

I really don't want those same kinds of people running nuclear reactors so I can read about how crypto scheme X literally blew up.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#299

Post by malermeister »

latchkey wrote: post #240
LurkingPenguin wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> KEGOC did not directly blame miners, but it used language similar to the energy minister’s and said it was cutting off customers who “over-consume.” And: > "We have seen that our [country's] electricity consumption has literally increased by 7 percent in one year. That's a very big increase," Energy Minister Magzum Mirzagaliyev said on September 30, noting that consumption usually grows by about 2 percent per annum…

> China banned mining. Chinese miners moved to Kazakhstan. Now Kazakhstan is having power shortages. We wouldn't be reading about power shortages at all if 3 major power plants didn't go offline.

We also wouldn't be reading about them if crypto people didnt increase power draw by 7%.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#300

Post by AlexandrB »

zherbert wrote: post #261

Bitcoin mining incentivizes the plentiful production of cheap electricity. This will make it so that there are no such thing as power shortages in the future and push us towards a Type I civilization on the Kardashev scale. Bitcoin mining reduces the risk for energy generation projects, because they no longer need to worry about who will purchase the extra capacity. Bitcoin mining can act as a load-balancer for the g…

Breaking windows incentivizes the plentiful production of new windows. This will make it so that there is no such thing as window shortages in the future.
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