The latest campus cancellation is different • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#291

Post by effingwewt » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #6

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

> How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Stop listening to them? EDIT: That's especially effective since the Twitter mobs keep moving targets every couple of weeks anyway. They don't have any patience.

To quote[1] Dave Chappelle- 'Twitter's not a real place.'

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-E6VtD_rE

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#292

Post by coldtea » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #217

ResearchCode wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is largely a labor law issue. Twitter mob is not just cause for terminating the employment of someone. Using anti-defamation laws against individual bullies is another possibility.

In general, in the US, there doesn't need to be a "just cause." Someone has become a headache or embarrassment for us--for whatever unprotected reason--is sufficient.

In the US sodomy was a crime too. Laws can change. Labour law is not written in stone.

And even with current laws, where there "need not be a just cause", there are protections against unjust causes (e.g. because they found out you're jewish, or you're fat, or whatever) and "because a mob campaigned against one" can be added to that. "But, under current law the business could just say they fired them for their own neutral reasons?" Sure. Let them defend that in a lawsuit, if it happened to coincide with a mob campaign.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#293

Post by mint2 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

> University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic

I’m not sure this is the case here, it depends whether that means the specific topic they are giving the talk on or topic as in area of claimed expertise. I would say it’s fair game to consider them to be claiming an area of expertise if they are publishing articles on the topic, and this valid to consider the quality and impact of that work when inviting them for talks

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#294

Post by cnppt » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

Protesting against a war is nowhere comparable to demanding speech (correct pronouns and affirming the original sin of inevitable white racism). In fact, people from that era are marginalized because their brand of wokeness is no longer sufficient and too libertarian.

Back in those days one could also see Chomsky discussing with William Buckley (impossible today) and Enoch Powell discussing with people on the left.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#295

Post by NovemberWhiskey » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #282

lolinder wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article argues, and I agree, that a university is free to not invite someone if they view them as controversial. Where the problem really is is that they invited him and then retracted the invitation in response to a mob. The retraction is what makes this problematic. EDIT: the other point that the article makes is that this professor's "controversial" views are held by upwards of 70% of the American public. The…

> this professor's "controversial" views are held by upwards of 70% of the American public. First of all, who says? Second of all, just because a majority believes something doesn't make it right. There was a time when the majority of Americans believed slavery was OK. Times change.

e.g.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/317006/affir...

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#296

Post by metagame » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #240

metagame wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've said multiple times in the thread, my own viewpoints are very close to the professor's! Public opinion of people who are not already in the system , however, is a different game, and you should always go with the safest bet if doing propaganda. It's critical.

I get what you're saying and it's reasonable. I think you greatly overestimate the objective rigor and correctness of your analysis, but I get it. Sanctioning widely-held views as not meritorious alienates a lot of people too. They don't seem to figure into your calculations. Based on your other posts, you seem to think that the most important audience for the talk is prospective climate change researchers, who you b…

You're wording this in a way that's deliberately representing your ideological opponents in the worst possible faith and light, and if nothing else it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of not only the views of your opponents, but of people who would be sympathetic to your views if you would take ten seconds to apply tact to your words.

This is the exact opposite of a good-faith argument and a demonstration of exactly the reason why having a person with tact give a speech for outreach is critical.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#297

Post by throwaway984393 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #289

throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

I get the historical analogy with anti-Vietnam War protesters. I just don't agree that they are actually the moral equivalent of anti-anti-racial-preference protesters. And I definitely don't believe that the majority will see it that way in a few decades. The moral foundations for Vietnam War opposition are much intellectually deeper and ideologically broader than those supporting racial preferences. A medieval Cath…

For what it's worth, I'm not trying to draw moral equivalence. I'm hoping to demonstrate that we just don't know what protests will be acceptable or not in the future.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#298

Post by rscoots » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

helen___keller wrote: post #199

If it wasn’t Twitter it would be Facebook, TikTok, Reddit, or whatever social network is cool tomorrow. The social media cat is out of the bag. Mob justice is, unfortunately, the purest form of democracy, untempered by government or constitution or other forms of control. The only paths forward are to live with mob justice or to enforce actions against free speech and expression (ie making it illegal to cancel someon…

? Or these highly-paid & pampered university admins could simply grow a spine.

And we can call them out on it in the interim which seems to have some impact.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#299

Post by coldtea » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

zimpenfish wrote: post #102

snek_case wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be good to pass laws that make it illegal to fire someone over a twitter mob (or any kind of mob action). Anti-mob or anti-bullying laws. And/or initiate class-action lawsuits against twitter for encouraging this kind of behavior or failing to prevent it, resulting in significant damage to people's careers. It's far from being the first time this happens, so there's definitely a case to be made that twitter…

> llegal to fire someone over a twitter mob [...] Anti-lynching laws Are you really comparing getting fired from your job to a lynching? Because one of them seems a whole lot less serious than the other...

>Are you really comparing getting fired from your job to a lynching?

Blacks used to get fired (or not hired) from jobs, or thrown out of towns and establishments for being black on the demand of racist white mobs.

Is that serious enough for someone to make a comparison with a historical issue like lynching, or it should involve a hanging too?

Lynchings didn't always involve death, sometimes it was "just" beatings, not to mention the term has had a metaphorical issue for collective violence/threats, even merely verbal, for a century now.

And the "right to work" (not to mention feed yourself and your family) is as important as the right to live.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#300

Post by coldtea » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

hallway_monitor wrote: post #126

version_five wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more decoupled an organization's or its leaders' incentives are from the "market" - the more risk averse they become. Everything is about keeping your head down and avoiding controversy. The goal for many orgs now is not to make customers happy anymore, it's to avoid the ire of a small group, and keep rent seeking. As we move towards post-capitalism this will only get worse.

Nobody ever got fired for canceling a controversial speaker

They should.