Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#291

Post by jimbokun » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:37 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #127

gavinray wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, I don't know why the industry (or people?) in general have a problem with accepting this abilities gap. It's as if the notion of people being arbitrarily born more or less with a knack for something is evil. Let me tell you the story of when I realized I was (at best), a "not-mediocre" dev: 1. I've been programming for fun even as a kid. That's what got me into it: If you count kid-programming as "programming…

> Agreed, I don't know why the industry (or people?) in general have a problem with accepting this abilities gap. Bias and poor processes. When people become reliant upon a technique or process to attain viability that means of execution becomes more important than the thing you are producing. As a result people will defend slow unproductive means of execution to the death. This is also a socially reinforced phenomen…

> It is completely realistic to achieve 10x (or even much greater) productivity and it isn’t challenging, but it requires abandonment of closely held ideas that are socially reinforced.

OK, you piqued my curiosity. Can you elaborate?

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#292

Post by llaolleh » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:38 PM UTC

cvlasdkv wrote: post #259

gavinray wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, I don't know why the industry (or people?) in general have a problem with accepting this abilities gap. It's as if the notion of people being arbitrarily born more or less with a knack for something is evil. Let me tell you the story of when I realized I was (at best), a "not-mediocre" dev: 1. I've been programming for fun even as a kid. That's what got me into it: If you count kid-programming as "programming…

The reason people struggle with the idea of 10x programmers is that people are very bad at evaluating the impact of others. Obviously we can all agree on a select few but for those who are just "regular" workers there is often not enough context.

I think it's also because we have a lot of ego. Let's admit it. There are some people who have a rare insight or mobilize people and code in a way that provides 10x value to the company and people.

Think about all the kickass Python libraries people have wrote. Those provide 10x value across the board to entire industries.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#293

Post by ryandrake » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:39 PM UTC

faizshah wrote: post #236

quadcore wrote: post #96

The 10x programmer is a silly myth. The idea that someone can produce in 1 day what another competent, hard working, similarly experienced programmer can produce in 2 weeks is silly. You know, 10x is an optimistic number here. Some programmers will do in 1 day what you wont achieve in a life time. And not understanding that makes you a bad programmer by my book simply because this is the foundation of the job. So let…

This is the opposite of how you should want any knowledge worker to think. If you believe that there’s some innate ability that makes people 10x better at a skill than you rather than hours of practice and study then you are much less likely to acquire that skill or learn those skills efficiently. You need to have a growth mindset to be an effective knowledge worker not a fixed mindset. This is discussed in the book…

As your sports coach always said "You don't need talent to practice!"

I'm not a huge believer of some mystical "innate ability" that people sometimes use to explain talent. Imagine a great concert pianist who plays flawlessly. After the concert, someone says, "Oh, you were born with such a wonderful gift of talent!" If I were that pianist, I'd be kind of offended--it totally ignores the decades of daily practice it took to get that good. Or a chess grandmaster. You're such a natural! Oh yea? STFU, this took years of grinding!

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#294

Post by jimbokun » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:39 PM UTC

hooande wrote: post #224

quadcore wrote: post #96

The 10x programmer is a silly myth. The idea that someone can produce in 1 day what another competent, hard working, similarly experienced programmer can produce in 2 weeks is silly. You know, 10x is an optimistic number here. Some programmers will do in 1 day what you wont achieve in a life time. And not understanding that makes you a bad programmer by my book simply because this is the foundation of the job. So let…

You don't say that so-and-so is a "10x painter". Art is obviously not about the quantity of paint used per day, but how it gets used and in what context. This is what you seem to be communicating with your quote about bittorrent. Because we're programmers, we chose an empirical measurement ("10x") as our term for high skill. This terminology is confusing and stupid, but now we're stuck with it

I'm guessing there are clearly 10x painters other painters can identify, but there are even fewer quantifiable metrics to measure a painter's output than there are for programmers.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#295

Post by llaolleh » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #172

itsibitzi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying 10x programmers are a myth because it's crazy that someone could do in 1 day what another could do in 1 week makes the assumption that both programmers in the example have the same amount of context, background understanding, and experience. The benefit of talented engineers comes from the fact that they avoid costly pitfalls - not that they pump out more code per hour worked. I feel this "10x programmers are…

> The benefit of talented engineers comes from the fact that they avoid costly pitfalls - not that they pump out more code per hour worked. Not just avoid pitfalls, being able to put together a good architecture is a huge factor as well. The effect is cumulative. If you have a good design to begin with, everything becomes easier with less risk of bugs. The result is that implementing new, or changing existing functio…

Exactly. It's not how fast someone churns out code but how well thought out/elegance in approach that delivers this 10x value.

Instead of writing entire systems from scratch, maybe you have enough experience or familiarity with well known techniques and libraries to ship faster.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#296

Post by jimbokun » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #124

quadcore wrote: post #96

The 10x programmer is a silly myth. The idea that someone can produce in 1 day what another competent, hard working, similarly experienced programmer can produce in 2 weeks is silly. You know, 10x is an optimistic number here. Some programmers will do in 1 day what you wont achieve in a life time. And not understanding that makes you a bad programmer by my book simply because this is the foundation of the job. So let…

I think that depends on the context in which you’re working. Flashes of genius don’t have much place an an enterprise code base. Everything is rigorously standardized and separated into layers. Each layer has a bunch of bookkeeping about dependencies, interfaces, mocks, expectations, and test cases. This is not really brain work; it’s typing. Now maybe if you’re really brilliant, you’ll do much better than average wi…

So the 10x programmer realizes you can accomplish the same goals with 1/10 of the book keeping, dependencies, interfaces etc. etc. etc.

In other words, the processes themselves place hard upper limits on the possible productivity.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#297

Post by bigbizisverywyz » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:43 PM UTC

quadcore wrote: post #96

The 10x programmer is a silly myth. The idea that someone can produce in 1 day what another competent, hard working, similarly experienced programmer can produce in 2 weeks is silly. You know, 10x is an optimistic number here. Some programmers will do in 1 day what you wont achieve in a life time. And not understanding that makes you a bad programmer by my book simply because this is the foundation of the job. So let…

If nobody had previously succeeded then I would take the point that Carmack was somehow unique, but by the time Doom came out lots of programmers had produced 3d games, and we had ray-tracing and lots of graphics theory and implementation (e.g. elite written in 6502 assembly on an 8 bit cpu).

>You think John Carmack was the only one trying to make 3d games when Doom came out? Thousands of programmers where trying to.

Yes Doom was a great game, and well programmed, but it didn't really move the state of the art forward massively, as I would argue that hundreds of programmers had already written and published 3d games by that point.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#298

Post by paxys » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

quadcore wrote: post #96

The 10x programmer is a silly myth. The idea that someone can produce in 1 day what another competent, hard working, similarly experienced programmer can produce in 2 weeks is silly. You know, 10x is an optimistic number here. Some programmers will do in 1 day what you wont achieve in a life time. And not understanding that makes you a bad programmer by my book simply because this is the foundation of the job. So let…

The myth part is that you can hire these 10x programmers by asking harder whiteboard coding questions and they will sit and close jira tickets for your company thereafter.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#299

Post by jimbokun » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #238

bogwog wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (s)he will probably write less code than the 1x developer. Or better yet, remove code.

https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Li...

This needs to be required reading for every first time, non-technical manager of software developers.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#300

Post by sumtechguy » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

vicda wrote: post #149

mosburger wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to say that I am a 10x developer 10% of the time. My work tends to be very "bursty" followed by long bouts of low productivity. It probably has more to do with my mental health than anything else. :/

Sounds like ADHD hyperfocus.

There can be that. But also some managers do not like you wander off task. So stick in your lane stick to your tasks... So eventually after years of that you just do only what is needed and skip anything else. After a few of those 'that is very nice but...' conversations you just say screw it and coast. Every once and awhile I get a burst where I can propel my group forward. But then usually I feel like I am bolder chained to them and dragging them down. More than likely I am just average and doing OK.