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I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

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Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#291
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steve Klabnik is well known in HN and in the Rust community, he mentioned it privately and doesn't seem to want to air dirty laundry more than he has too. You can either see his history and trust that he wants to get as much done with as little said as possible or say you trust Amazon. Either is understandable but I think it's reasonable to be a known member of a community and speak up just enough to hopefully get th…

I assume that Amazon getting too much control is a real problem. But also suspect that deep down the true concern Klabnik has is that Steve Klabnik thinks Rust is about him, or at least he is the one that is supposed to write articles about what Rust is about. Not someone from Amazon or anywhere else.

> But also suspect that deep down the true concern Klabnik has is that Steve Klabnik thinks Rust is about him, or...

Oh, don't post this kind of personal attacks.

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#292
What is the worst case scenario that the author imagines happening to Rust due to Amazon’s influence (or anyone’s influence)?

This is unfamiliar to me - are there notable stories of what poor steering has done to a programming language? What were the consequences?

I can parse the basic grievances here on power dynamics, losing control of something you helped build…that’s familiar enough…but I’m having trouble understanding the gravity of what the author is passionate about preventing.

(In case it isn’t obvious I’ve never been a long term contributor to an open source project - genuinely curious about the context here)

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He said in his first tweet that he wants to have a "serious conversation", then goes on to list three grievances: that Amazon has a lot of involvement in Rust leadership, that Amazon "marginalized the core team" (but no details) and that Amazon "has done some other dirty shit" (but no details). That's two out of three grievances that have no substance whatsoever. You cannot have a serious conversation about these thi…

>> decided to not have a Rust Foundation ED, meaning Chair has outsized power in the Foundation > that Amazon "marginalized the core team" (but no details) That seems like details to me. It's also extrapolated on elsewhere here. > That's two out of three grievances that have no substance whatsoever. You cannot have a serious conversation about these things if there is not more detail. Actually, you could, just by ign…

>Actually, you could, just by ignoring the things you don't see evidence of and focusing on the points that do, and assessing them based on merit.

No, you really can't. Just by including the other points in the discussion, but being unwilling to extrapolate on them, shows bad faith (perhaps unintentionally) on the part of Steve and compromises the entire discussion. The only reason you include some vague "Amazon did shady shit" in a tweet is to elicit an emotional response on the part of the reader and immediately biases the argument against Amazon. The argument is not based on merit; it never can be now, because it's been tainted. This is known as "poisoning the well" [0].

Even in this thread, commenters are saying how they implicitly trust Steve not because of the merits of his argument, but because of his personal brand. He's (again, perhaps unintentionally) taking advantage of that fact by mud-slinging at Amazon, priming readers to already be biased against Amazon, and then once called out on it the response is "oh just ignore the fact that I did that and look at this other argument which I promise is more substantive". That's not arguing in good faith.

I see all that Steve has done for Rust and I see him post here (and on reddit) a lot, so I have respect for him. But this "discussion" was brought up completely the wrong way by him, and any outcome is going to be tainted. It'd be best to just let this current discussion die, and bring it up again in the future in a more appropriate manner.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its not ignoring! Look a the comment I originally responded to. They complained that two out of three items had no substance, therefore we can't have a serious conversation. That is, specifically, what I was addressing. > I still don't know why it should get attention though. So they don't have an executive director? Why should anyone care? > You keep trying to say things, without saying why anyone should care abou…

> in fact taking a side just makes it easier to people to dismiss my point The problem is that, it is pretty clear, that based on how many people have agree with me, that this guy was unclear. There was obviously a lot of confusion here. And that is a valid criticism of this person. > My point was that ignoring everything said The fact that so many people are confused about what the guy is saying, is on him. He shoul…

You continue to ignore the point I'm making and the context I made it in, in what appears to be an effort to push your own agenda. You can feel free to to that, but I don't see a reason to continue my part in this conversation when it feels like you're not attempting to actually engage with me.

If you care about why I think it's not worth continuing, and why I've come to this conclusion, I suggest you attempt to re-read what I wrote previously with a more open mind and instead of trying to drag it back into the specific argument. In any case, have a good evening.

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#295
post #161
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the tweets, I think we are past the point of no confrontation.

(I was aiming at "not telling everything" is a friendlier tone than telling everything and possibly losing all trust)

I get that but tweeting "they've also taken steps to marginalize the core team. and some other dirty shit I won't say rn." is the kind of statement that burns bridges pretty hard.

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#296

The issue is probably touchy. It may not be possible to share "objective" facts with the public. This unfortunately makes it harder to differentiate it from FUD or another instance of open source drama. The thread starts with a (vague) statement against Amazon trying to expand its control on the Rust project. It later ends up being a spat between rust team members (who aren't a part of Amazon) on the role of the Core…

Yeah given the general responses from other people involved with the project, Steve seems pretty far out on a limb here.

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in fact taking a side just makes it easier to people to dismiss my point The problem is that, it is pretty clear, that based on how many people have agree with me, that this guy was unclear. There was obviously a lot of confusion here. And that is a valid criticism of this person. > My point was that ignoring everything said The fact that so many people are confused about what the guy is saying, is on him. He shoul…

You continue to ignore the point I'm making and the context I made it in, in what appears to be an effort to push your own agenda. You can feel free to to that, but I don't see a reason to continue my part in this conversation when it feels like you're not attempting to actually engage with me. If you care about why I think it's not worth continuing, and why I've come to this conclusion, I suggest you attempt to re-r…

Dude, even in the post that you linked, where you claim that he "goes into more detail", he is missing the main value judgement punchline.

The summary of that statement is "During that time, the chair of the board has more power than they usually would, and Amazon is chair of the board."

But once again, he is refusing to give the actual, moral punchline here.

If he wanted to convince people, he could explain all the dastardly things that he believes the board could do now. But he doesn't do that. All he says, is another statement that is devoid of moral argument, which is that "amazon is chair of the board" and that the board has more power.

The way to actually make an argument, is to not simply state facts. Instead you should say why people should care about these facts, and describe the actual material harm.

> , but I don't see a reason to continue my part in this conversation

Yes, I get it. When someone brings up the fact that basically everyone is pretty confused about the situation, and brings up how poorly this guy communicated, you have no response, and just want to assert you that you disagree, without backing it up.

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#298
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you mean, but there is a key difference and I think that difference is driving a good portion of then for/against comments in this thread and elsewhere. The entirety of the Rust Principles, etc, seems to stem from the belief, supported by Niko in the Principles blog post and others by wording, that Rust is not just a programming language, but is a ‘community’. I can find no analogue in the C++ Committee, o…

When ISO C++98 came out there was no Google, or better said, it was just been founded.

You are correct. I may have read more into GP’s post than they intended. I assumed given the issues present in the tread and the original tweets, I assumed they were referring to the Committee submission document from 2020 [1] and the ‘uproar’ from non-FAANG developers.

1 - http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p213...

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you mean, but there is a key difference and I think that difference is driving a good portion of then for/against comments in this thread and elsewhere. The entirety of the Rust Principles, etc, seems to stem from the belief, supported by Niko in the Principles blog post and others by wording, that Rust is not just a programming language, but is a ‘community’. I can find no analogue in the C++ Committee, o…

The C++ Committee story was primarily about Google and other large corporate interests advocating a large techno local change in the language to benefit their use case with no input or consideration for other users of the tool Any links for background on this debate?

As I posted in the sibling comment, the Goals submission is at [1]. The Reddit and HN threads are pretty easy to search for (and there were quite a few). Summary, as I remember it, a group of primarily FAANG, with a large Google presence, authored a submission for the C++ Committee which was effectively a flag in the sand saying they (and their very deep pockets) wanted C++ to be primarily gear toward large, modern style development at large company scale. Removal of backwards comparability, limiting standard to only 64 bit architecture, preference for unstable ABI and language standard, etc. The document acknowledges that the use case they want the committee to push C++ towards is not for everyone, primarily because they all represent large money/scale interests, but they want the committee to go there way anyway.

1 - http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p213...

Re: I refuse to let Amazon define Rust

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> decided to not have a Rust Foundation ED, meaning Chair has outsized power in the Foundation > that Amazon "marginalized the core team" (but no details) That seems like details to me. It's also extrapolated on elsewhere here. > That's two out of three grievances that have no substance whatsoever. You cannot have a serious conversation about these things if there is not more detail. Actually, you could, just by ign…

>Actually, you could, just by ignoring the things you don't see evidence of and focusing on the points that do, and assessing them based on merit. No, you really can't. Just by including the other points in the discussion, but being unwilling to extrapolate on them, shows bad faith (perhaps unintentionally) on the part of Steve and compromises the entire discussion. The only reason you include some vague "Amazon did…

> Just by including the other points in the discussion, but being unwilling to extrapolate on them

That seems a bit strong. The statement was "won't go into rn (right now)".

> compromises the entire discussion.

It does. I'm not saying it causes no problems. I'm saying it shouldn't be grounds to immediately discount all other evidence given. It's perfectly valid as a modifier to another piece of evidence where you might use it to weight it, but I don't think it's valid to immediately ignore everything else said.

> The only reason you include some vague "Amazon did shady shit" in a tweet is to elicit an emotional response on the part of the reader and immediately biases the argument against Amazon.

No, that's one possible reason, it's not the only reason. Other possible reasons might be to signal other people more involved in the events in question that if they want to share their own story, perhaps now is the time and opening that makes that easier for them.

I agree that the presented argument would have been better without that statement, but that doesn't immediately negate the merit of what else is presented.

> The argument is not based on merit; it never can be now, because it's been tainted. This is known as "poisoning the well" [0].

The mistake you're making is in assuming that poisoning the well applies to and discredits non-dependent clauses. It should be easy to see how this applies when you consider the two statements "You should beware of John, he's made some threatening gestures to me and you in the past, and I there's been some assaults in the area" and "You should beware of John, he's threatening gestures to me and you in the past and multiple people have seen him assault three people recently." In one case it's used to imply guilt of something that is not factually proven or stated, in the other there's a fact to readily look into for confirmation that you can use as evidence to make up your own mind. That someone uses a call to emotion beforehand should not immediately discount that fact from consideration.

> Even in this thread, commenters are saying how they implicitly trust Steve not because of the merits of his argument, but because of his personal brand.

That's not what I've said, and not what I'm asking of you.

> But this "discussion" was brought up completely the wrong way by him, and any outcome is going to be tainted.

It may be tainted in some way. That doesn't mean easily verifiable facts should be ignored.

To be absolutely clear, since it seems very hard for some people to get my point, I have no qualms with your mistrusting him, or thinking his factual statements have no merit or are not problematic enough to act on. I just don't think it's valid to completely ignore the factual statements and refuse to consider them as you seemed to indicate you were doing because he also says "Amazon is being a meany in other ways too" and doesn't expound on it, and some other statements may not be as well supported as they could.

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