Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times • Hacker News Board

Re: Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times

#291

Post by b3morales » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

increscent wrote: post #267

codesections wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Most people would prefer not to have it, but due to a free market failure, the ungimmicked product just isn't available any more? No, I'd go with (4) people would prefer not to have it, but companies know that they can monitize the data they collect[0] and thus are willing to offer a discount that's large enough to get people (who may or may not know about the data collection) to buy the smart™ version. [0]: htt…

Would it be possible to create a business where you: * Buy the cheap hardware at wholesale prices * Strip the surveillance tech and/or re-flash the firmware * Sell the "dumb" product for the same price as the "smart" one In this case, the "smart" vendor would likely lose money if they're selling below cost. So the only difficulty would be a legal one... I'm not sure if it's legal to buy a product, modify it, and then…

I feel certain there was a court case about this, but can't remember it. It's similar to the company that re-sold edited versions of popular movies.

Doing this as a sale, for electronics, you'd probably fall afoul of certification problems (e.g. whatever boxes Underwriters Lab had ticked wouldn't apply to the modified version). There would be branding issues. And regardless of whether it turned out to be legal, you'd 100% draw a lawsuit from the original manufacturer.

If it were to work out at all, this would probably have to be done in a way that (legally at least) the customer is not buying the device modified from you. They would have to purchase the device first, then bring it to you to modify, for which you charge a fee. Even then you'd probably still get sued.

Not a lawyer, though, so this is just speculation based on following tech over the years.

Re: Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times

#292

Post by reaperducer » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #225

reaperducer wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She said that if I disabled it, insurance would refuse coverage. This is true. That's how i found out that one of my medical devices has s cellular modem: I got a letter from the DME company saying that if i didn't use it more hours, my insurance would refuse to cover it and I'd have to pay the balance. Where i lived, i had terrible cellular service, so i had to get an exemption from the insurance company and make su…

Have you looked at the data on the SD card? Can it be manipulated in any way as to show that it is being used even if not?

Yes. There are programs that will open the files and display the data. Some even make charts. But it was all pretty boring stuff.

Re: Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times

#293

Post by Mikeb85 » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

turtlebits wrote: post #166

armenarmen wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please share a link to the dumb one you ended up purchasing?

I’ve actually never seen a “smart” monitor.

Considering they're usually attached to 'smart' devices, curious what extra features it could have...

Re: Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times

#294

Post by horsawlarway » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #266

horsawlarway wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that this is both invasive and a huge violation. My wife had pretty severe sleep apnea in the third trimester of her pregnancy, two experiences that make me think this practice needs to be nuked from orbit. 1. We properly read the manual for the device and adjusted the pressure so that it didn't cause problems with burping/ingesting air during sleep. Tissue gets softer in women as they near birth and the body…

What are your qualifications for fiddling with medical equipment?

Well - In this case my qualifications were following the manufacturers clear instructions on tuning pressure in the manual.

Re: Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times

#295

Post by Havoc » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

Maybe this is what is burying Krebs with that ddos

Re: Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times

#296

Post by chuckee » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #266

horsawlarway wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that this is both invasive and a huge violation. My wife had pretty severe sleep apnea in the third trimester of her pregnancy, two experiences that make me think this practice needs to be nuked from orbit. 1. We properly read the manual for the device and adjusted the pressure so that it didn't cause problems with burping/ingesting air during sleep. Tissue gets softer in women as they near birth and the body…

What are your qualifications for fiddling with medical equipment?

Firstly, the device was apparently made to be adjusted. A single set of settings is not comfortable for all users, and the manufacturer recognized this.

Secondly, that's the wrong question entirely. People have a right to decide their own medical treatment (or refuse it entirely), and that right must not be circumvented with legal or technical means.

Re: Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times

#297

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #271

lotsofpulp wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people will gladly hand over this information to insurance companies in exchange for lower premiums.

Most people would ultimately be charged higher premiums if they did hand this data over. Ins: In the last week, you've purchased 3 packages of Oreos, 2 cans of Crisco, 3lbs of 73% ground beef, no vegetables, lots of stuff with high sugar content, high salt content, and very little actual nutritional value. Therefore, we rank you in a high risk category (since you are clearly over 21 years old) based on the fact you a…

But the people for whom it would lower premiums would hand over the data, which results in the same thing. A health insurance company could offer me a $50 discount for a monthly blood test showing my sugar/cholesterol, and I would do it. Why should I pay for someone else’s cheese/alcohol/butter/sugar/bacon consumption.

I assume the reason it is not currently implemented yet is because the cost of monthly blood tests is too high relative to the cost reduction. I do get $200 if I do it annually though, so it seems like it is at least worth it on a yearly basis.

Re: Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times

#298

Post by greenshackle2 » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 4:01 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #19

DavideNL wrote: post #11

Somewhat related: my Netatmo weather station sends me an e-mail every few weeks that i should replace the battery of one of the modules. I assume it doesn’t like rechargeable batteries. I never replace them, can’t disable the e-mail. Support can’t fix this of course. So I’ve setup a server-side e-mail rule to send all netatmo.com emails to the junk to prevent being constantly spammed by them.

Is it powered off AAs? Rechargeable batteries have lower voltage than non-rechargeable ones[0], so maybe the module is a bit oversensitive when trying to guess the battery is about to die. -- [0] - With batteries I have around the house, it's 1.5V nominal voltage for typical non-rechargeable AA, vs. 1.2V for rechargeables.

However the voltage on alkaline batteries drops pretty linearly from 1.5v to 1.0v, while rechargeables maintain close to 1.2V for most of their discharge, then drops off quickly:

https://www.boat-project.com/tutorials/aa_batteries.htm

That's why rechargeables work in most devices, since alkalines are 1.2v or below for a good chunk of their useful life anyway, most devices are designed to work fine with 1.2v.

If a device actually needs 1.3+V to function properly, alkalines won't last long, you'll want to use 1.5V lithium batteries.

Re: Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times

#299

Post by chuckee » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

larrik wrote: post #147

caymanjim wrote: post #140

I have a semi-related anecdote about surprises from devices. I use a CPAP. After a year, I went back to the doctor for a followup, and was asked to bring the SD card so they could review the data it collects. The device records the times and duration of use, various settings, and some metrics on breathing (apnea events, etc). I knew it recorded this stuff on an SD card. I brought the card to the appointment, but the…

Interesting, this was made super clear to me, and even included instructions to leave it plugged in for at least 40 minutes after waking up in the morning so it can communicate. Generally the insurance companies don't like paying for supplies for people who aren't actually using them, and need to see that you use it for an average of 4 hours per night or whatever.

> need to see that you use it

You mean "want". I'm sure if we let them, they'd try to convince us they also "need" to monitor our diet and exercise (and whatever else would incidentally be recorded) to make sure we're following doctor's recommendations on that.

Re: Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too many times

#300

Post by sangnoir » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

turtlebits wrote: post #166

armenarmen wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please share a link to the dumb one you ended up purchasing?

I’ve actually never seen a “smart” monitor.

I'd have thought manufacturers would put the smarts in the driver...