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Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

arstechnica.com

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Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#291

Post by MattRix »

bluGill wrote: post #53
MattRix wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this always true? The iPhone seems like a pretty clear argument to the contrary. As far as cars go, Tesla is a clear outlier pushing innovation. I mean sure you can argue that eventually the rest of the field will catch up, but there are many advantages to being a first mover.

There were smart phones before the iphone. They were badly done giving Apple opportunity to make them useful. (and the first iPhone was bad in a lot of ways that we only know from hindsight)

The parent post stated “you can have a brilliant system without brilliant actors”. I don’t believe that’s true. There are many examples of brilliant stand-out products that make a huge difference in their field, and the iPhone is one of the most obvious.

Also there was very little bad about the original iPhone. It obviously lacked features compred to modern phones, but it was a fantastic device.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#292

Post by yurishimo »

dragonwriter wrote: post #288
Robotbeat wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Volt and it's awesome. It's a hatchback with lots of cargo space (5 seats in the Gen 2 Volt, too). Don't know that you mean about "limited utility." The Volt powertrain would've worked fine in a crossover vehicle like the Rav4 with only a small scale-up.

> I have a Volt and it's awesome. It's a hatchback with lots of cargo space It has 10.6 ft³ of cargo space. A Yaris (a sub compact) hatchback has 15.4 ft³, Prius Prime has 19.8 ft³, Honda Civic Hatchback has 24.5 ft³, RAV4 Prime has 33.6 ft³ (for models with folding seats, those are all without seats folded.) The Volt doesn't have “lots” of cargo space, it has miserably small cargo space whether compared against othe…

Depends on where they're located. Outside America, subcompact cars are still the norm unless you need the utility of something large for your immediate family/job. Only got 2 kids? Subcompact.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#293

Post by visarga »

seph-reed wrote: post #63
chii wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an idea can be both good and unpopular communism is a good idea, but it's unpopular, for a reason i say. The reason for the idea of taxing externalities being unpopular isn't really proven yet - after all, it hasn't been instated, but just spoken about, and the silent majority don't have an opinion!

I should note, that I don't think massive political shifts should be tested in production. So whether communism is a good idea or not remains to be seen. We need to run a solid pilot, get the as many kinks out as possible, and then assess. Similar with taxing damages to Earth.

Some of us have had first hand experience with communism, it does not "remain to be seen" for everyone, just those who don't know.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#294

Post by baq »

singingfish wrote: post #268
Retric wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3) 36% of global grid power comes from coal down from 41% in 2013. It’s expected to hit 22% by 2040. Secondly coal isn’t nearly as bad as you might thing relative to gasoline. Simply producing gasoline releases significant CO2. Refineries alone release approximately 2.5 lb of CO2 for each gallon of gas, add in exploration, extraction, and transportation means gasoline is doing a lot of damage before reaching your car…

My physisicist friends did the sums (for professional reasons). Electric vehicles produce less CO2 even if the electricity comes from dirty sources.

there are published papers stating exactly this; one of the first google hits i've got states 54% in a realistic comparison. if they're 2x off the mark it's still a worst-case break even.

https://www.avere.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/englisch_St...

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#295

Post by jazzyjackson »

asdff wrote: post #233
jazzyjackson wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the Prius prime, it gets a little over 25 mi EV-only and the only time it needs to burn gasoline is if you turn on the windshield defroster because the heat pump can only do so much I guess. But the performance feels much sportier in EV mode and it has no trouble pulling up to 80mph without any ICE

25mi EV only is like an electric scooter range.

I live in a small town so the only time I drive more than 25 mi in a day is when I'm driving 200+ miles, and then I'm glad it takes gasoline. But yes, 50 mi would be better, but they already took the spare tire out to make room for battery as is (out of curiosity I googled it and wow, Tesla's don't have a spare either. That's probably my least favorite thing, I had to get towed my first week in the car because of the wimpy high-efficiency tires.)

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#296

Post by dragonwriter »

yurishimo wrote: post #292
dragonwriter wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a Volt and it's awesome. It's a hatchback with lots of cargo space It has 10.6 ft³ of cargo space. A Yaris (a sub compact) hatchback has 15.4 ft³, Prius Prime has 19.8 ft³, Honda Civic Hatchback has 24.5 ft³, RAV4 Prime has 33.6 ft³ (for models with folding seats, those are all without seats folded.) The Volt doesn't have “lots” of cargo space, it has miserably small cargo space whether compared against othe…

Depends on where they're located. Outside America, subcompact cars are still the norm unless you need the utility of something large for your immediate family/job. Only got 2 kids? Subcompact.

> Outside America, subcompact cars are still the norm unless you need the utility of something large for your immediate family/job.

Yes, and by that standard the Volt is a big car (not a subcompact), but still has small cargo space for a hatchback (2/3 of a Yaris, which is a subcompact.)

By American standards, its a fairly small car that has very small cargo space relative to its size, and so tiny cargo space compared to what the market expects. And also small compared to competing PHEVs, which to be fair generally also have small cargo space relative to size.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#297

Post by srg0 »

b112 wrote: post #108
WhompingWindows wrote: post #44

The Japanese car companies have done pretty poorly in the 2010's in supporting the energy transition. Toyota has been extremely slow to adapt after the Prius, which makes sense because of their ridiculously large volume of sales of basic, gas-efficient passenger vehicles. I give Toyota big props for the Prius, which was the original Green Vehicle 15-20 years ago, and still is a HUGE player in the efficiency space. II…

Toyota, Hyundai and Honda have all bet on H2. That's just as green, and electric as a Tesla. The tech works, refuels 10x faster than any battery based car, but so far no adoption outside of europe and asian countries. That's a phenomenal achievement. They chose wrong maybe, but they chose, and chose a path they though most viable. To claim they aren't in the game is beyond unfair.

What is your source that Hyundai is all in on hydrogen? Hyundai has Kona, and at least according to this press release intends to be the top 3 EV manufacturer by 2025:

https://www.hyundai.news/eu/articles/press-releases/hyundai-...

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#298

Post by srg0 »

hokkos wrote: post #226
MelvinButtsESQ wrote: post #19

Production of batteries is the constraint ... previously, currently, and in foreseeable future ( Further, given this capacity, the numbers work out such that we are, on the macro level, DRASTICALLY more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly by putting more hybrids and Plug-in Hybrids (which have fewer batteries) on the road than we are by reserving said batteries for fewer pure EVs. 2.5 Priuses are better than…

The latest ICCT report shows that in the european market fossil car are around 250gCO2eq/km in life cycle analysis, hybrid at 180 and EV at 80, so I don't agree at all that more hydrid are better than less EV, and even it seems quite a wrong reasoning, more EV will bring more money to lithium mining just look at Rio Tinto entering the lithium carbonate market with a 2.4B$ investing. https://theicct.org/publications/g…

So, assuming the same total number of vehicles is sold and used, then the mix of p% full EVs + (100 - p)% ICE vehicles can be better than the entirely hybrid fleet when

80 p + 250 (1 - p) 170 p > 70

p > 7/17 ≈ 41%

So 1 EV and 1.5 ICE are roughly equal to 2.5 hybrids. And anything more is an improvement.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#299

Post by BoorishBears »

theluketaylor wrote: post #277
BoorishBears wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1.5L engines are still pretty sizeable once you take into account the head, valve cover, oilpan. Then all the external parts needed to support combustion like water pump, radiator, coils and their wires and engine mounts. The total volume is a lot more than the 1.5L cylinders. Add in the fact Volt can directly power the wheels with the engine and now you are forced to put certain components in very specific, highly…

> All the components you listed scale down in turn But don't go away altogether, which is my point. There is a space cost to be paid in any PHEV that is significant, both in absolute volume terms as well as prime placement. The engine occupies extremely valuable real estate. In a pure EV that's space you can move the cab forward for more legroom or cargo space (or just make the car's overall footprint smaller). > Aff…

There's no point continuing this if you insist on displaying such a deep misunderstanding of PHEVs.

You literally still can't get past the fundamental point half of what you listed as needed for an ICE is already needed for a BEV. Even the Model 3 has an oil pump and filter!

The packaging challenges faced are not somehow forcing you to stick the engine in some magical super important place where batteries would never have to be either, like I have no idea why you're acting like a frunk is some sacred place you're robbed of if there's an engine there when several BEVs have come out without them.

Like do you not realize a Model S has a radiator? Or that there are ICE cars with engines everywhere from the front to the back of the car?

-

And theres are no cheap EVs besides econoboxes priced above their bracket. Phev or not.

That's why as far as I'm concerned we're not on a realistic path to reducing our emissions.

Everyone is throwing out deadlines for ICE production and patting themselves on the back until those deadlines approach and are kicked down the line.

An entire classes of EVs hasn't appered yet, and for now we can blame the cost of batteries or something, but eventually we'll run out of excuses.

The true reason is because companies that have been incrementally updating the same platforms for a decade won't go and redesign their cars as EVs and keep them affordable. That's why the Model 3, which really is the EV equivalent of a Camry, costs 10-15k extra.

Meanwhile the Rav 4 Prime is equipped similarly to a Rav 4 Limited but only costs 3k more (also comes with 100 more HP...)

PHEVs are poised to fill the gap when reality comes home to roost. When our power grids are failing to cope with basic cooling, no one is going to force people to look at other options.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#300

Post by nickik »

Hypx_ wrote: post #278
nickik wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely there are other EV efforts that would benefit from Toyota's manufacturing prowess and capacity. They are not actually that exceptional anymore. At best they are marginally better. Tesla new architecture of structural cells in a pack connected to massive castings is far better then Toyota EV have. > Solid hydrogen fuels will be the next wave. I really don't think that will be the cast. > Imagine we hit "peak"…

A hydrogen fuel cell is the highest energy density battery possible. It doesn't how more advanced li-ion or a variant of it gets, hydrogen fuel cells will still have a higher energy density. Furthermore, by the time you're talking about metal-air batteries you are basically build a fuel cell but with metals. Which is to say you're just building fuel cells that are fundamentally inferior than something that already ex…

Good luck betting on that.

But show me the tech because:

> From their website: Storage is 30% lighter, 7% smaller, and 17% less expensive than Lithium-ion battery per kWh.

This is nonsense that wont happen.

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