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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#291

Post by enriquto »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #243
krzyk wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Issue is that when they joining EU there was no mention of large influx of immigrants to the country. There is also a difference when you get immigrants of somehow similar culture vs large amount of immigrants from one that is completely different (and it being the same as ISIS, doesn't help, how one can differentiate infiltrator from legitimate refugee?). It is all good if amount of immigrants is not large influx. B…

I’m not from Hungary or Poland so can you please explain to me why Hungary and Poland seem uniquely inundated by refugees and apparently terrorists? Are there terrorist attacks happening from refugees regularly in Hungary and Poland? Why are they special, or are other EU countries just getting terrorist attacks and are ok with it? I’m genuinely asking because looking at the map, neither Hungary nor Poland are the fir…

they will answer that they don't have terror attacks precisely because they don't let terrorists in (unlike those pesky french and germans)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#292

Post by nameequalsmain »

bluthund wrote: post #249
bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

What a sick mentality. Globalism and mass immigration is the destructor of culture. Nationalism is the only rational mentality for long term sustainability. A people should never be ruled by those who have no blood in the soil or by those who don't serve the needs of that people. Nationalism is what makes great nations. You can forget about that for a while and play the game of the inevitable failure of multicultural…

> Globalism and mass immigration is the destructor of culture.

In what way? It might change the cultural landscape but that happens all the time, even the most nationalistic state does not have the exact same culture it did 100 years ago. Old culture will go away to make place for a new one, or rather, culture is always evolving.

> You can forget about that for a while and play the game of the inevitable failure of multiculturalism, but it will always fail, you will always destroy society, and from the ashes, a cohesive, homogeneous people will reemerge to build back from the ashes of your stupidity as has always been done

Do you have any examples?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#293

Post by ipatec »

tobltobs wrote: post #131
ipatec wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those 3b are such a simplistic narrative. How much money do Western companies make in Hungary due to EU? The reality is that EU is mostly a neo-colonial project where the East Europe is depleted of resources (especially human capital) and treated as nothing more than a marketplace for W European products.

Hungary has a trade surplus with the EU.

Of course. Check the largest exporters... yea... mainly German companies. That surplus ain't staying in Hungary

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#294

Post by biscotte_ »

ginko wrote: post #115
reader_mode wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU botched acquiring vaccine compares to most developed countries by months, in no small part due to the retarded mindset that pharma companies shouldn't profit off of this and trying to renegotiate prices forever (overriding some countries who tried to acquire it individually and would have gotten it faster). Measures were not dictated by EU, each country decided it's own policy.

The only large countries that did better were the UK and US due to banning the export of vaccines. It's mainly the UK trying to spin this as a propaganda win after BREXIT.

Not UK’s fault if whatever the EU does ends up a mess, whether trying to name a corridor in a Brussels building, or trying to have The European GPS up and running.

Normal, with 27 participants all responding to different national and political interests. Try having a flatshare with 27 families and agreeing on how to paint the wall.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#295

Post by ceilingcorner »

jq-r wrote: post #248
ceilingcorner wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Orban exists because of EU overreach. If the Brussels set weren’t intent on turning the EU into a federal United States of Europe, none of these “rogue states” (a completely absurd label for Hungary, btw) would have any political interest in Fidesz/PiS/etc.

Wrong. EU is the boogeyman for the governments in Eastern Europe. Whatever unpopular move they make, EU gets blamed for it. It is easy to blame some entity everyone knows exits, but at the same time, that entity is more like a group which doesn't fight back against it. Even if they fight back and criticize the government here and there, the latter own the media and that becomes a non-story. Right wing governments alw…

Sorry but this is a caricature. These countries were dying to join the West 30 years ago. Orban himself was one of the most prominent pro-West figures in the 90s.

The only reason these countries are now “hostile” is because the EU and the West have changed.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#296

Post by bobthechef »

pell wrote: post #205
zpeti wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally total…

>Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. I'm not going to go into the topic of migration and the "legality" of it. But the reason Orban is considered "radical" by many is not because of his stance on immigration first and foremost but because he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the m…

> he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the media, academia

This is precisely where I claim you've gone wrong.

> NGOs

NGOs are not democratic institutions per se. NGOs can be incredibly detrimental to societies, whether intentionally or through incompetence, and can be used by billionaires to social engineer societies as they see fit.

> the media

The media are not democratic institutions per se, even if they can in principle be used to communicate information needed to make sound political decisions. In practice, they've owned by someone with a view that's inseparable from the writing. So far I've seen corporate media banned and very often, in that part of the world, the corporate media are owned by powerful foreign interests, thus often becoming instruments for social engineering and propaganda.

> academia

A healthy academia can, again and in principle, be very important for the maintenance of an informed society, but here, too, they are not democratic institutions per se, and they have demonstrated enormous susceptibility to ideology (which is quite a charitable claim; they are, in fact, the breeding grounds of many of the ideologies that later enter the political sphere). Through funding (gov't and private foundations often backed by billionaires) and biased hiring, ideologues can be promoted and concentrated within the ranks of the university.

So I have to say I am a bit frustrated by the pervasive myopia about the reality of these kinds of political issues. What I see is often a credulous attitude toward the false narratives that corporate media have published.

Whether Orban is using appropriate means to achieve certain ends is the subject of another discussion, but that Hungary and other countries are the subject of foreign imperialist ideological bullying is not an open question as far as I am concerned. Whatever flaws Orban might have, realistically, I do not see any other forces that can mount a serious enough defense against these threats. (Mass immigration is only one thing Orban takes issue with, btw.)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#297

Post by joelbluminator »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #284
joelbluminator wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isnt belgium unable to form a government for years? I don't know that Belgium is a diversity succeess story.

What's wrong with not having the government? It looks like Belgium functions quite well on an administrative level that it doesn't really need a "government".

A lot of countries would have loved to be Belgium, I agree. But we're making the case whether national diversity is good or not. If Belgium would have split to the flemish and french parts - why would that have been worse?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#298

Post by dmix »

hypocry12 wrote: post #261
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't underestimate the EU. It's a slow beast but it can bear a grudge. The language used to address Hungary is slowly becoming more and more aggressive. A head of state from a small EU country explicitly called for Hungary to leave. You also have to remember that the EU is an union of sovereign countries. Plenty can be done by EU members where the EU is powerless. History shows that messing with France and Germany c…

History also shows that when Germany messes about with east europe it can get messy rather quickly. And sadly hungary is in bed with russia. The eu should just cut funding for hungary and let everything else play out from there. Anything more that that is pure suicide for an already declining eu.

History as in 80+ years ago?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#299

Post by johnnycerberus »

bluthund wrote: post #245
johnnycerberus wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it can be a federation of states. Hopefully, that will happen.

Hopefully that never happens. Hopefully more Hungary's emerge. Hopefully more Western countries start actually serving their people Hopefully nationalism crushes this perverse anti Western virus which has taken over the once greatest nations in the world

I'm certain that every Romanian sees Vitkor Orban as a wolf in sheep's clothing. The protector of interests for V4 group through unethical means and corrupted politicians. Hopefully, sanctions will follow soon. Masking local interests of a few corrupted individuals with nationalism is borderline criminal.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#300

Post by snickerer »

jeroenhd wrote: post #42
bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

People are tribal by nature. They will get into fights because their neighbour supports the "wrong" sports club, and you can extend that up to any level. Within a country there's city vs city, city vs countryside, and above country level there's EU vs US, or "the west" vs "the east". People group together with others that share certain cultural values. Ever since borders, passports and standard languages have been th…

> People are tribal by nature.

By nature or not by nature — they are in fact very tribal.

But I see this as an argument for the United States of Europe. Let's give tribalism to the people in the USE. Big _cultural_ autonomy for all the regions! The government should fund all the locals' funny dances, clothes, and rituals.

Having regional culture makes the average tribalist more happy than having nation wide culture, I believe.

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