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Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

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Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#291

Post by Dumblydorr »

momento wrote: post #124
donatj wrote: post #49

I don’t hear much about it these days, but circa 2004 when I was going into computer science I had multiple teachers and a guidance counselor warn me that all the jobs would be going to India and tell me I should pursue something else. This seemed to be very much the prevailing wisdom of the time. I pursued it anyway as it was my passion. I was one of five students in my program that had been a huge multi-campus prog…

My father was very strongly against my decision to get into web development (2012) and he echoed this sentiment heavily. I distinctly remember him yelling at me as a teenager; "you'll be living under a bridge in 5 years if you do this! India has this market!". He eventually kicked me out for not listening, forcing me to to borrow money from a friend to pay tuition in my final semester. Needless to say he was complete…

"People find it far easier to forgive others for being wrong than being right." -Dumbledore

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#292

Post by extraAccount »

rocqua wrote: post #189
KronisLV wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess that's the difference between being the outsourcing source and destination :) Personally i'd agree that this is good for individual employment prospects, but not necessarily good for the country itself. For example, here in Latvia i've heard that there's a shortage of developers and hence many government projects can't be fully staffed easily, because they're having problems being competitive in regards to…

I think this is an issue in most countries. Government Development jobs just don't pay enough to be competitive for talent. So instead talent goes to outsourcers. Here in the Netherlands that has meant most big government development projects are done by outsourcers. Which leads to bad incentive alignment. Yielding cost overruns, projects that are DOA, and projects with way to large scope. And at the bottom line, the…

Exactly. Even in Malta, most government IT projects are partially outsourced to local or international companies for many of those reasons. Developers don't usually want to work for the government at the start of their career.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#293

Post by sparks1970 »

MattGaiser wrote: post #17
anonu wrote: post #13

Was this the actual feeling at the time? Or just one reporters perspective, spun into a story. I feel like the ad for $7.95 prime rib is probably a more relevant data point from the past than this article. Edit: Gourmet House: https://www.bismarckcafe.com/blogs/260/remembering-gourmet-h...

I originally went into chemical engineering rather than CS/software/computer engineering as many of my relatives thought that software engineering was a fad that wouldn't stick around. I graduated in 2019. So even several decades later some thought that.

Offtopic but my son is thinking of taking Chemical Engineering. Would you recommend in 2021?

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#294

Post by lordgroff »

rocqua wrote: post #189
KronisLV wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess that's the difference between being the outsourcing source and destination :) Personally i'd agree that this is good for individual employment prospects, but not necessarily good for the country itself. For example, here in Latvia i've heard that there's a shortage of developers and hence many government projects can't be fully staffed easily, because they're having problems being competitive in regards to…

I think this is an issue in most countries. Government Development jobs just don't pay enough to be competitive for talent. So instead talent goes to outsourcers. Here in the Netherlands that has meant most big government development projects are done by outsourcers. Which leads to bad incentive alignment. Yielding cost overruns, projects that are DOA, and projects with way to large scope. And at the bottom line, the…

Government employee in Canada here. The pay itself is not necessarily the best, but top notch benefits, generous vacation (maybe a moot point in Netherlands but definitely not here), a rock solid pension make it a lot closer than the salary number alone.

There's also the fact that the number of hours worked is always fair, and that you can move within the public service very easily.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#295

Post by BlargMcLarg »

brtkdotse wrote: post #275
DonHopkins wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands, permanent employment contracts are much harder for companies to break than in the US, so they often hire new people as consultants or temporary employees for a few months, then offer them a permanent contract if they work out. It worked out well for me at TomTom: I kicked ass during the 3 month probationary period as a contractor, then when they decided to offer me a full time contract, I was in a…

Do they pay contracting rates during this time as well? Those can be 2x your salary in Sweden, so not sure I'd sign on as an employee at that point.

No, they don't. You'll generally be paid less and have less benefits. It truly only serves as a "do your dues" period. GP also doesn't mention that having a perm contract on its own grants an individual benefits you wouldn't otherwise have. Inverse this, and it means a perm contract becomes a requirement for reaching a lot of milestones in life. Most notable are mortgages and even free market rent.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#296

Post by astura »

eyelovewe wrote: post #266
sersi wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's been in charge of recruitment, I've made an effort in hiring people who are less likely to get a chance at other places (minorities, older candidates) One thing that stood out to me though is that a lot of the older candidates I interviewed that had been struggling had deep knowledge of a technology that's no longer used and had had very little interest during their career in learning new things outs…

I just want to add that technology is political. The directions specific entities push for become de facto standards. I have heard and seen many technical hiring staff express the idea that some technology or practice is wrong or obsolete when they are simply unaware of either the full picture or how the underlying tech works. There was a medium article that recently suggested that developer competence be measured by…

>There was a medium article that recently suggested that developer competence be measured by a number of standards that are quite obviously the result of the authors misperception about how web browsers, JavaScript, modern front end coding idioms, and modern front end build tool chains work. What was worse was the condescending disdainful tone the author had while they clearly had no idea what they were talking about.

Got a link?

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#297

Post by snarfy »

lordnacho wrote: post #64

My biggest issue with education is the whole "study this, get a job doing that" idea. It's plainly wrong, and it sucks in people who drink the koolaid and think there's an easy route to work. Very little is learned in college that is necessary for general employment. By general I mean just about everything that isn't licensed, like being a doctor. What college does is it throws a bunch of hard but irrelevant subjects…

> persevere through technical issues

This insight is severely under appreciated. It may very well be the primary personality trait that separates engineers. It's not intelligence, reasoning, or problem solving skills. Those are certainly needed, but they are needed in a lot of occupations. Engineers for whatever reason are unwilling to let a problem go no matter how frustrating.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#298

Post by wwweston »

sersi wrote: post #140
hellbannedguy wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ageism. Sorry for being so blunt, but I know to many people who were just uninteresting to human resourses after hitting 45-50. I know more than a few homeless people in my life, and over half were once Programmers. It makes me sick. I do know this, if you are in tech, save up that money. (I have never understood this industry's way of hiring. Long drawn out interviews, and candidates whom are just average that…

As someone who's been in charge of recruitment, I've made an effort in hiring people who are less likely to get a chance at other places (minorities, older candidates) One thing that stood out to me though is that a lot of the older candidates I interviewed that had been struggling had deep knowledge of a technology that's no longer used and had had very little interest during their career in learning new things outs…

Closing in on some ageism inflection points, I find I have the opposite problem: everything is still interesting! Maybe more so: things I thought were boring at 20 are things I now know more about the relevance of. And the thing that's terrifying is knowing I won't have time to learn it all.

Paradoxically, this does have the side effect that I'm more skeptical of learning some new ways of doing the same thing, preferring to prioritize new learning for actual new capabilities vs different arrangements of the same deck chairs. I see that behind some of the inertia in my experienced cohort -- just-in-time can be reasonable approach to picking up specific tech.

OTOH, I've certainly worked with people who are aggressively disinterested in picking up anything new, even when offered the chance to do so on the job, and that's certainly no fun to work with. Or manage.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#299

Post by teekert »

raducu wrote: post #258
me_me_me wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> my father didn't allow me to use my bike for YEARS as a punishment for smashing my bike as a 10 year old Seriously, being so strict to punish a 10yrs old kid for years is not a sign of a toxic personality? Parents suppose to build theirs kids character and not stomp on it to make them 'tough'. toxic masculinity is not being manly man man. Its being insecure and lashing out at anyone who disagrees with you or is no…

The last bit fits the bill the most in his case -- he took it as a huge personal attack that I smashed the bike he bought, and the tough discipline he was raised in is why I labeled it as toxic masculinity.

Why do you associate this with masculinity though? Yes, your father is man but I'm not sure if his masculinity has anything to do with it?

I recognize the character traits. I know someone raised without a father who also shows them. Perhaps in his case a result of having a tough time financially their entire youth? This put a huge value on stuff (because almost everything is irreplaceable, literally, and there was hardly any time to fix things), leaving little room for error and no reasonable room for breaking stuff, as children do?

As I am getting older I really realize that I do things like my parents did them. It is really difficult to just decide to do it differently because of the emotions involved. It is difficult to be rational the whole time, the monkey brain sometimes leads. What is important is to be able to admit your mistakes and being able to apologize. For all my flaws I hope to show my kids at least that there is no shame in this.

I'm sometimes harsh on the children only to later apologize and tell them I actually do believe they should be able to make mistakes and that whatever they broke can be fixed again, and if not, no lives were lost (ideally).

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#300

Post by Wildgoose »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #135
DoreenMichele wrote: post #19

"News" is almost always bad news. I find that I have to create my own content if I want to share news that's not the most negative spin one can reasonably make. To get any more negative, you would need to start fabricating stories and leave the land of plausibility. Edit: Come to think of it, when I was interviewed for a news story about the quiet little hep a epidemic a few years back, they fabricated a quote from m…

> they fabricated a quote from me Whenever I see someone mention having been interviewed, chances are good they'll mention this.

Yup. It's happened to me as well.
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