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Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

nature.com

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Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#291

Post by sjwalter »

peter422 wrote: post #251
sjwalter wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but what I stated is very easy to validate and I'm completely correct. Here are the links to the actual FDA trials for the different major co vid vaccines on clinicaltrials.gov as well as their associated estimated completion dates. All are currently in Phase 3 trials. (Aside, it's not clear how they will complete reporting for these trials as the companies ble…

Nothing is perfectly safe. All the vaccines you have taken have side effects. So does the food you eat and the Sun exposure you get. The current data we have shows the vaccines are very safe to a high degree of certainty. If you had created a bar beforehand, they’d have met it. But you can always keep moving the goalposts.

I agree nothing is perfectly safe. However, I have never once in my life taken a drug, vaccine, or other medical treatment that has not completed FDA phase 3 trials. I have no interest in doing so.

All the other vaccines I have been administered had at the minimum a decade of widespread use following their phase 3 trials (and as an aside, their phase 3 trials were much longer studies than these covid vaccines are projected to be).

I've never taken a drug released under EUA.

I investigated every vaccine I took and assessed the risk/benefit ratio and elected to take them. In general, I love vaccines, and I love the medical establishment that gave me the option to elect them! However, the medical establishment seems to have thrown away the playbook on these particular vaccines. The point is, I could examine the risks of those vaccines, and since their administration was not politicized, the data was totally trustworthy. And since most were out of patent, the financial incentive to manipulate data just wasn't there. I could be reasonably informed of the risk. Since these have not completed phase 3 trial, much less have decades of history in widespread use, I have basically no long-term safety data with which to inform my decision. So, precautionary principle tells me: No, thanks!

The risk to benefit ratio is the only thing that matters to me, as I believe it should to others. My likelihood of serious impairment from covid seems very low to me, just like it seems very low to children, for instance. Further, the ratio changes every single day: The more people who get vaccinated, the lower my risk gets, as does the risk for every other unvaccinated person, making the ratio, as more get vaccinated, skew towards not getting the vaccine.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#292

Post by detaro »

jaywalk wrote: post #8
hammock wrote: post #4

This is great news, adding to a report in Nature that the natural immunity produced in people who have already had covid may last a lifetime.[1] In case you hadn't heard, the Cleveland Clinic--consistently regarded as one of the top hospital systems in the United States and in the world--recently shared a study of 52,238 patients showing zero incremental benefit from the jab to the previously infected, recommending t…

It's time for the naturally immune to be treated the same as those who've been vaccinated. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence to the contrary, and plenty of evidence to support it.

Combination of previous infection and a vaccine dose gives you better coverage, the second is less needed. (And e.g. here in Germany proof of previous infection + one dose counts as fully vaccinated)

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#293

Post by peter422 »

sjwalter wrote: post #283
lame-robot-hoax wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously didn’t read my link as it addresses exactly what you’re saying in your comment. Study completion date does not mean phase 3 trial completion date. “ However, these dates do not mean clinical trials will continue for this long, and instead reference continued safety monitoring after the vaccine has been approved and rolled out, which is standard practice within the industry” https://www.pfizer.com/news/p…

I'm guessing you didn't read the link you pasted as well. Note the correction at the top of the page. It is clear that I'm correct. The vaccines are still in phase 3 clinical trials, as reported by clinicaltrials.gov, the source of truth for such questions. Estimated Study Completion Date literally means the date that the Phase 3 trial study is estimated to be completed, at which point FDA goes through the process of…

How do the ethical calculations stack up when we account for the hundreds of thousands of lives saved?

Regardless of whether you think the vaccines are safe, they are quite clearly effective.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#294

Post by raphlinus »

willmadden wrote: post #240
michaelmrose wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory this is true but in reality half of the US population just isn't smart enough to evaluate such a question and those who are hesitant are virtually exclusively drawn from this portion. This is well highlighted by the fact that the societal and individual risks of avoiding vaccination are so insanely high while the risk of vaccination is virtually insignificant. If I offered you a chance to skip rope or play…

>those who are hesitant are virtually exclusively drawn from this portion. Well, that's complete BS. The list of people expressing concerns about the mRNA / spike protein based injections includes the inventor of the PCR test (Nobel Prize winner), the guy who invented Ivermectin (Nobel Prize winner), the guy credited with inventing mRNA vaccines, the guy who discovered that HIV causes AIDS (another Nobel Prize winner…

I'll quote the expression of concern, in case people don't click through your link and see it:

The journal is issuing this expression of concern to alert readers to significant concerns regarding the paper cited above [1].

Serious concerns have been raised about misinterpretation of the data and the conclusions.

The major concern is the misrepresentation of the COVID-19 vaccination efforts and misrepresentation of the data, e.g., Abstract: “For three deaths prevented by vaccination we have to accept two inflicted by vaccination”. Stating that these deaths linked to vaccination efforts is incorrect and distorted.

We will provide an update following the conclusion of our investigation. The authors have been notified about this Expression of Concern.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#295

Post by baq »

incrudible wrote: post #155
braincat31415 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wall Street Journal reported Friday that about half of adults infected in an outbreak of the delta variant in Israel were fully vaccinated with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine Source CNBC.

Moreover, half of the deaths from the delta variant in the UK occured in fully vaccinated individuals: https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccinated-among-delta-death... I would see two main reasons for this: - vaccinations are far from "94% effective" in the age groups who need it the most (elderly with weakened immune systems) - deaths are over-counted (death from any cause within 28 days is counted as COVID death)

you conveniently miss the fact that if more people were vaccinated, delta wouldn't have spread this fast and perhaps wouldn't even come to be or would die out before it could spread.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#296

Post by rolph »

undfg wrote: post #271
rolph wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

87.9% efficacy https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.22.21257658v...

That's for the Indian variant? How does it compare to the previous variants? Is it noticeably worse or similar?

efficacy is similar due to conservation of the receptor binding domain[RBD] of spike protien[S] the RBDab is billed as the gold standard neutralizing antibody as when it binds to RBD of the S protien, that particular S protien is no longer able to bind to its ligand [ACE2]

should we see a variant that escapes this RBD Antibody mechanism then there will be a possibility of escape, and concommitant requirement to tweak the vaccine antigen.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#297

Post by baq »

wait_a_minute wrote: post #22
xadhominemx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hard to reliably verify previous infection and very safe and easy to get vaccinated, so what’s the point? I’m going to check your profile — 90% chance you spread antivax propaganda. Edit: yup. Every time.

It’s not your business to verify anything. It’s up to the individual to do what is best for their own situation. Focus on decisions for your own self and family.

it's a little known fact that ayn rand was on welfare.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#298

Post by sjwalter »

mrj wrote: post #256
sjwalter wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why everyone keeps saying the trials completed, or which link you mean, because we can go right to the primary source (clinicaltrials.gov) and see that all the vaccines are still in Phase 3 of FDA trials. Here are the links. Please stop spreading misinformation during a deadly pandemic. Moderna's FDA trial: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427 Estimated Study Completion Date: October 27, 2022 Pfiz…

You're spreading doubt about vaccines during a pandemic. Please stop.

One of the foundational, bedrock principles of bioethics is "informed consent". It is extremely, practically diabolically, unethical to lie to people about medical treatments prior to gaining their consent. This is literally bioethics 101.

You are saying that I am putting people, or society, at risk simply by stating the simple, 100% true fact that these vaccines are not through FDA Phase 3 trials.

The implication of this is you believe it is best if people are NOT given informed consent, that they are kept in the dark, and told lies about the status of these vaccines, because doing so will encourage more people to take them.

I'm sorry, man, but that is just awful, terrible stuff.

Coursera has a course on bioethics, you may want to inform yourself before you engage in discussions about medicine, because you are totally operating in an evil way.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#299

Post by adfass »

boc wrote: post #134
metters wrote: post #89

The headline is wrong. The article is about mRNA vaccines in general. Moreover, Pfizer is partner of BioNTech, which developed the vaccine. I don’t understand why OP omits that and solely credits Pfizer.

"The process is the vaccine" aka manufacturing the vaccine is the hardest part. Saying that Pfizer is just a partner of the "real" vaccine developer downplays the importance of manufacturing to a significant degree. It's just as much Pfizer's vaccine as it is BioNTech's.

It's still a bit unfortunate that this vaccine gets marketed as the sole achievement of a major us company while in reality the larger part of the funding for its development came from other parties, the single most biggest being german tax-payers.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#300

Post by yazaddaruvala »

xxpor wrote: post #24
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll "need" to take periodic boosters to improve Moderna and Pfizer's profit margins. That said, given its safe, I'm happy to do it to help fund / drive investment into the mRNA supply chain.

I'm sorry, but you have no idea how vaccine economics work. Why do you think that researcher had so many problems at Pfizer getting funding to work on mRNA? Drug companies want to invent things like Viagra or Harvoni, not vaccines that are given to everyone a few times.

> not vaccines that are given to everyone a few times

I agree, and therefore Pfizer and Moderna have an incentive to claim annual boosters are needed. To get recurring revenue.

I'm not sure why you feel we disagree.

I was just also saying, "I'm happy to get a useless booster, as long as its safe" because the extra volume of mRNA production should drive down long term manufacturing costs.

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