Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to Work Hard

paulgraham.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 1001 posts

Re: How to Work Hard

#291

Post by PragmaticPulp »

giantg2 wrote: post #160
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in their 20s that they would be millionaires or billionaires Billionaire isn’t a realistic goal, but millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. It doesn’t even require a FAANG job or living in a super expensive city any more, just wise job selection, a reasonable amount of financial savvy and budget adhere…

I updated to multi-millionaire. The idea was that people would have enough money to quit their job and live very comfortably. I think the network effect is highly overblown for the average person. Sure, networks can be good for the people in the top 10%, but I don't see it really helping most of us because what are the chances our average friends will be in a position to hire us to a high position. I don't see an ave…

> I think the network effect is highly overblown for the average person. Sure, networks can be good for the people in the top 10%, but I don't see it really helping most of us because what are the chances our average friends will be in a position to hire us to a high position.

Your friends don't need to be in a position to hire you into a high position. They just need to be in a position to recommend you for a good job that might be a step up. Or put in a good word for you when you apply at their company.

They don't even need to be friends. In fact, most of the time I get my back-channel references from people who simply worked at a company at the same time as another person.

Network effects aren't always obvious. I can't tell you how many times I've changed my mind on a candidate (in either direction) due to a friend of a friend giving me some more info about their experience working with the candidate.

Re: How to Work Hard

#292

Post by jedberg »

> The one precisely dateable landmark I have is when I stopped watching TV, at age 13.

It frustrates me when people brag about this like it's a universally good thing. Imagine 100 years ago someone bragging that they stopped wasting time reading books.

It's especially frustrating to see PG do it given that he's an artist (or at least used to be), basically putting down another art form.

TV has good and bad things. TV can convey information. TV can be an art form, consumed passively like a painting. And TV can just be a mental escape, like reading a novel.

TV is not good or bad, it's how you spend your time watching it that matters.

Re: How to Work Hard

#293

Post by luffapi »

reader_mode wrote: post #117
giantg2 wrote: post #44

Hard work can be good, but only if you own a substantial capital interest in the company/result. But if you can hire people to do it for you, then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living. If you are just part of the labor and not the capital, then there really isn't an incentive to work harder than necessary to keep you job or earn a measly raise. If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in…

>If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in their 20s that they would be millionaires In software development this is a realistic goal if you play your cards right. Plenty of other careers too. I think there's also statistical data to support this as well (hours worked early on increasing your income and net worth down the line). Working hard early on in your career does pay off.

As someone who has gone from being poor to being upper middle class via the tech industry, I can say without exception hard work had nothing to do with it. Every quantum leap in my career came from convincing some rich guy to allow me to bask in the mist of the cash firehose being directed at them.

I would say working hard is actually negatively associated with success. Once you get branded a “worker bee”, your chances for high level advancement quickly bottom out.

If you really want to get ahead go to the right parties. The VP no one can ever get a hold of is making an order of magnitude more money then the middle manager putting in 80 hours a week. That person will correctly have been identified by the execs as not belonging to the upper class.

That being said, once you see how the game is played it can be hard to stomach. It is reality though.

Re: How to Work Hard

#294

Post by sanderjd »

sidlls wrote: post #116
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in their 20s that they would be millionaires or billionaires Billionaire isn’t a realistic goal, but millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. It doesn’t even require a FAANG job or living in a super expensive city any more, just wise job selection, a reasonable amount of financial savvy and budget adhere…

> millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. No, it's not. It's common for some FAANG engineers. It's not common at all for the industry as a whole. Look at all these comments doubling-down on the "7%/$10k-per-year" arithmetic, as if the only thing that affects savings rates is knowledge of this basic math. For a data driven community there sure are a lot of p…

It seems like $100k is conservatively a pretty typical salary these days even outside the big companies. That is $4M after a 40 year career, which makes you a millionaire when you retire if you can save 25%, even if the savings appreciate 0%. This seems pretty accomplishable.

But perhaps the idea of "being a millionaire" you're thinking of is not that you slowly manage it over a long career, but that it happens more quickly?

Re: How to Work Hard

#295

Post by sidlls »

pcbro141 wrote: post #251
sidlls wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All these replies with the typical 7% return for 20-30 years calculations are missing the point. I know what the arithmetic is. It is not common to be in a position to do that, even in the software industry.

Software Developer Median Salary (2020): $110,140 per year That sounds like a lot of software developers are in a position to put away $10k+/year to me. Source: BLS, https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...

That doesn't account for the events of life, like illness, maintenance on vehicles and property, etc.

Re: How to Work Hard

#296

Post by sanderjd »

giantg2 wrote: post #164
SonicScrub wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Millionaire Next Door concepts are still as relevant as ever, albeit the specifics are a bit dated. Millionaire status is reasonably achievable for someone whose income and cost of basics allow for modest discretionary income. This is certainly the case for the majority of software developers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door

Over what time horizon? How do we factor in retirement needs and inflation? The point is that the vast majority of people are not going to be financially independent by 30, or even 40.

Is "financially independent by 30, or even 40" the definition of "being a millionaire"? Or does it count if you save up a million dollars by some point in time? I'm honestly asking what we're discussing here, because they seem like very different things.

Re: How to Work Hard

#297

Post by PragmaticPulp »

bko wrote: post #132
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in their 20s that they would be millionaires or billionaires Billionaire isn’t a realistic goal, but millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. It doesn’t even require a FAANG job or living in a super expensive city any more, just wise job selection, a reasonable amount of financial savvy and budget adhere…

> Working hard in the mailroom or stocking shelves at a grocery store isn’t going to translate into a successful software career Right, but it might lead to satisfaction regardless. Even the most menial positions are often rewarded. I have worked a few menial jobs, and effort is even more important. When I worked hard and went the extra mile when required, I got rewarded with better shifts, more flexibility and more…

Great point. I've actually done some of my hardest work for hobbies, volunteer positions, or just helping friends with huge projects. And I loved every minute of it. There's a lot to be said for being able to appreciate accomplishing things and working together with other people.

I've had good success hiring some bootcamp grads for this reason. Some of them may not have the years of experience that senior candidates or even college grads might have, but you can find a lot of hard working and highly motivated people among bootcamp grads.

This is especially true for those who came from careers that involved a lot of hard work or manual labor. It's refreshing to work with people who enjoy getting things done and can appreciate how lucky we all are to be able to sit in air conditioned offices and type on computers all day. Contrast this with some of the perpetually disgruntled college grads I've seen lately who think we're taking advantage of them unless we pay them Google L6 compensation that they saw on levels.fyi .

Re: How to Work Hard

#298

Post by gmadsen »

bluedino wrote: post #279
gmadsen wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you are actually doing software 12+ hours a day for a decade, I find it hard you wouldn't find great success. unless you spend none of that time improving and just doing the same thing you learned in the first year, you will become an expert. Experts are well rewarded for their skills

Depends on if you're working on the next Twitter or plugging away at Java code as a corporate slave for an insurance company.

That seems to conflict with the preface that you are constantly learning and improving, which should include changing jobs when you have become stagnant. you can make absurd money working in finance with java programming.

Re: How to Work Hard

#299

Post by vlunkr »

giantg2 wrote: post #44

Hard work can be good, but only if you own a substantial capital interest in the company/result. But if you can hire people to do it for you, then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living. If you are just part of the labor and not the capital, then there really isn't an incentive to work harder than necessary to keep you job or earn a measly raise. If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in…

I guess it depends on what we're calling "hard work". I think most software devs have already done lots of different types of hard work to get where they are. Going to school, doing intern work, finding a job and learning new languages, etc. It gets easier once you've established a career, but it takes significant work to get there.

But if we're defining it as "working lots of hours," then yeah, I agree, don't do that.

Re: How to Work Hard

#300

Post by luffapi »

giantg2 wrote: post #242
reader_mode wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in their 20s that they would be millionaires In software development this is a realistic goal if you play your cards right. Plenty of other careers too. I think there's also statistical data to support this as well (hours worked early on increasing your income and net worth down the line). Working hard early on in your career does pay off.

I haven't seen it personally. I've done everything "right" in life and I still get screwed 10 ways. Do you have any links to the data you mention?

I totally agree. If you want to get ahead, you need to “hack” the system by convincing people in the upper class that you belong there too. Working hard is a great way to signal that you’re middle class labor.
Post reply on HN