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After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

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291–300 of 353 posts

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#291

For someone who hasn't followed closely, what exactly is meant by "War on Drugs" in the article? Is it a specific policy they are referring to or do they mean combatting illegal drugs in general? I think we can all agree that illicit drugs can cause damage to societies. Even the article mentions it in regards to the opioid crisis, which continues to decimate Americans across the nation. Maybe it would be wiser to cal…

"I think we can all agree that illicit drugs can cause damage to societies."

Abuse of drugs (whether legal or not -- remember, plenty of opioid abuse was perfectly legal) can be harmful, but that doesn't mean the aim should be trying to stop the use of the specific drugs that are currently illegal, or even of any drugs.

That aim is misguided, from a cognitive liberty standpoint [1].

The aim is also misguided for other reasons, but those are hard to disentangle from the implementation. For example, the reason of injustice when the drugs that are targeted for prohibition being associated with minorities, dissidents and the counterculture, while drugs associated with the wealthy and powerful being given a free pass.

It's also tied up with the injustice of the legal system, where the wealthy and powerful can often get off with a slap on the wrist in the rare cases they are charged, while the poor and marginalized are often forced to accept plea deals because they can't afford good legal representation even if they're innocent, etc.. which leads to a disproportionate number of minorities and marginalized groups in jail.

Not sure how you can divorce the reality of the implementation of the War on Drugs from its aims here.

[1] - By cognitive liberty I mean the right of people to decide what they put in to their body and what states of mind they can achieve.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#292
I was wondering if China and Singapore's wars on drugs have been effective. On one hand, Chinese online communities boast how drug-free their countries are. On the other hand, numerous researches show that harsh punishment does not necessarily reduce a crime. And of course, some also retorted that China had less drug problems only because there was no trustworthy stats.

Nonetheless, it's astounding that 2% of American adults are on cocaine and more than 10% of American population misuse opioid prescription while Americans wrote more than 190 million opioid prescriptions.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are other substances that most people really don't think should be accessible to everyone This is not how a free society operates. I choose what I put into my body and not you or anyone else. If doing so causes me to commit a crime, then punish that crime, but banning drugs because "most people" don't like them is not freedom. If you don't like them, then don't do them. >Is it even possible to be a responsible…

All drug use has health costs. If healthcare is public or heavily subsidized then the taxpayer has to foot the bill for every unhealthy decision that others make. We can have a free society where people are free to put whatever they want in their bodies, and to suffer the health outcomes and poverty and combination of those things freely as well, if they make bad decisions. What we can't afford as a society is to giv…

So should we criminalize being obese as well before implementing tax-payer funded healthcare? Yuck.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While a good thing, a losing battle in my opinion. You can perhaps convince your local authorities to not build another prison here this year, but somewhere else another prison still got built. There isn't enough people who give a shit, and an alarming amount of people who are rock hard for cruel punishment as a good thing. Unbuild the existing prisons. John Brown didn't write letters, he burned down plantations.

Are you advocating for the violent destruction of government property? Is that allowed on hacker news?

What sort of weird strawman are you trying to build here? Or did GP edit their comment in a way that made your's nonsensical?

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#295

Counterpoint: The war on drugs has been progressively ramped down since the late 90s. NYTimes wrote a long story about how during the feds quit using tactics such as convicted drug dealers to flip on their bosses, etc. We aren't putting as many drug dealers in jail and we aren't putting many drug users in jail. What you get is an epic rise in opioid deaths over the past 30 years and chaos on the streets of our cities…

You realize the opioid deaths are because a certain drug maker encouraged docs to overprescribe? That left a lot of people hooked for no good reason. Now they've flipped and are underprescribing, leaving a lot of patients turning to the street for their pain control.

Doctors are professionals. Part of the reason they're allowed to prescribe is that they have supposedly taken courses and proven themselves to be of such sound judgement and knowledge that we can trust them to gatekeep extremely technical poisons.

If you're telling me they can be so easily swayed by corporate messaging, and have been this way for a decade or longer, then we should scrap the apparently worthless MD degree and just let any old fart practice medicine because most people excel at internalizing the corporate branding that is supposedly the driving force behind modern medicine.

I mean that honestly. If the marketing dept of these companies are really running the shows and medical degrees count for nothing, then the sheer number of successfully treated patients shows that anyone who can listen to a pharma corp can prescribe drugs.

We can still have degrees for surgery and other hard skills.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you advocating for the violent destruction of government property? Is that allowed on hacker news?

What sort of weird strawman are you trying to build here? Or did GP edit their comment in a way that made your's nonsensical?

GP said

> John Brown didn't write letters, he burned down plantations.

That's a clear call to violence imo.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#297

> On Tuesday, two House Democrats introduced legislation that would decriminalize all drugs in the U.S., shifting the national response to a public health model. The measure appears to have zero chance of passage. If that isn't just the perfect description of politics in the US, I don't know what is. I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing, after all the money was…

> I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing This is quite a straw man, not wanting to decriminalize all drugs is not the same as thinking the War on Drugs is a good thing. (And it's not like there is one particular policy that on its own constitutes the "War on Drugs", so this is a very vague statement anyway). It's also interesting to me that in many other argument…

"At the local level, US cities where opiates are effectively decriminalized like SF have horrible outcomes when it comes to drug abuse and overdoses."

The obvious question to ask is if the rampant drug abuse and overdoses in SF is due to decriminalization or something else? And has decriminalization made the situation better or worse?

I would argue that to prevent unintentional overdoses the best thing to do (other than improve people's lives so they don't feel a need for substances that could be harming them) is to legalize these drugs, make them pure, clearly label them, and educate people on how much of a dose in what circumstances would be an overdose.

That alone would greatly reduce the harm, and be much more effective than making/keeping these drugs illegal and forcing their users to play the lottery with a mystery drug of unknown purity and dosage every time they snort or inject.

That's not to mention the harm of being shot or assaulted by the police during an arrest for drug use, your life being ruined by a felony conviction, possibly getting raped, tortured or murdered in prison, being kept out of the legal economy afterward you get out (if you get out) because of a felony conviction, etc..

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#298

> On Tuesday, two House Democrats introduced legislation that would decriminalize all drugs in the U.S., shifting the national response to a public health model. The measure appears to have zero chance of passage. If that isn't just the perfect description of politics in the US, I don't know what is. I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing, after all the money was…

> I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing This is quite a straw man, not wanting to decriminalize all drugs is not the same as thinking the War on Drugs is a good thing. (And it's not like there is one particular policy that on its own constitutes the "War on Drugs", so this is a very vague statement anyway). It's also interesting to me that in many other argument…

> But I don't see any reason to believe that decriminalizing everything would make things better.

The stated intent of decriminalization, redirecting resources from enforcement to treatment, switching to a public health strategy, is harm reduction.

We still don't know what will reduce use and abuse. Whatever the merits of the War on Drugs, it manifestly failed to reduce either.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#299

> On Tuesday, two House Democrats introduced legislation that would decriminalize all drugs in the U.S., shifting the national response to a public health model. The measure appears to have zero chance of passage. If that isn't just the perfect description of politics in the US, I don't know what is. I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing, after all the money was…

>If that isn't just the perfect description of politics in the US, I don't know what is. I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing, after all the money wasted, all the lives lost, all the people pointlessly locked up for things half the country can now do openly and legally. Well it does sound like you're equating the War on Drugs to the War on Marijuana. There are…

"Is it even possible to be a responsible Heroin user?"

Many years ago I read of a long-term study which followed heroin addicted doctors for 20 years, in a society which guaranteed them a supply of clean heroin, and found that as long as their supply was clean and uninterrupted these heroin addicted doctors actually performed slightly better than their non-addicted colleagues, and there were minimal if any negative health consequences.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find the study since[1], so take that with a grain of salt.. and heroin is not really my subject of interest so take the following with another grain of salt, but my impression has been that pure heroin is actually not that harmful, especially compared to something like alcohol or cigarettes.

The main problem is the potential for unintentional overdose, which really shouldn't be much of a problem with pure heroin (or not much more than many other prescription drugs, whose use doesn't have any negative moral stigma attached to them). If people know the purity and dosage of the drug they're taking they tend not to take so much that it would kill them... not accidentally anyway. It happens, but it also happens plenty of other prescription drugs.

There's also addiction, but if you can get a pure, cheap supply (which should be the case where heroin is legal) and it doesn't cause any serious health consequences, then what's the problem?

[1] - If anyone else can find this study, I'd be eternally grateful.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it doesn't have to be violent. structures feel nothing.

So destroying public property is not violence now? Okay... thanks I guess.

The US prison system is an ongoing act of violence. Destroying and replacing them with humane systems should reduce violence.
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