Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Europe's Software Problem

berthub.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 585 posts

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#291

Post by hardolaf »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #255
wyager wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% The median American is much richer than the median European.

While also spending more money on various things, or having to spend them on privatised health care etc. It's not directly comparable. My point also discussed things like infrastructure and public services, which are often very neglected compared to their European counterparts.

Yeah, that statement made zero sense by the other person. Sure, on paper, us Americans at the median have more money. But after you pay for a single visit to the ER or urgent care, or after you have a kid, or any expenses, Western Europeans are far better off. I know, I've been near that income level before. It's not a fun experience over here.

That said, now that I've moved into a job that pays at least $225K per year, you know, life in the USA is amazing for me. And everything everywhere else in the world is so cheap! Why can't my fellow country men just pull themselves up their bootstraps and get a high income earner job? It's so easy! You just go to the job tree and get one /s.

But more seriously, we need to completely restructure our society in the USA before the poor and middle class violently rise up against the government and make us into what Mexico was 120 years ago.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#292

Post by whimsicalism »

mannerheim wrote: post #262
coryrc wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has more billionaires per capita than the USA. Similar to the US, they also pay less in taxes than the middle class. I wonder if Sweden has higher funding than the rest of the continent?

> In the 2013 list, approximately 40 percent of Sweden’s billionaires are self-made while 60 percent inherited their wealth. In the United States, by contrast, 70 percent of billionaires are self-made while around 30 percent inherited their wealth. Once we exclude inherited wealth, the United States has around 1 self-made billionaire per million inhabitants compared to 0.6 for Sweden. https://www.nationalreview.com/t…

50% of all wealth in the United States is inherited by the top 5% wealthiest families.

60% of all wealth in the United States is inherited.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#293

Post by [deleted] »

mmarq wrote: post #166
thiago_fm wrote: post #4

This problem will never get fixed. The author forgot to mention in depth the main reason why EU isn't even in the game: culture. In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. A lot of third world countries are years ahead of the whole EU continent in that aspect. I say this because I live in Europe for the q…

Software development and other tech jobs were low-status professions in Europe (the UK being a partial exception) up until a few years ago. Once a friend told me some thing like "it is not fair that you make more money than I do, I have a degree in literature and, with all due respect, you are just a guy that works with computers". This was not an absurd conversation to hear anywhere in continental Europe in the earl…

[deleted]

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#294

Post by MisterPea »

cletus wrote: post #99

Hot take: the problems here are cultural. Consider these data points: 1. The US is a country of migrants (ignoring the blight of slavery for now), whether those be those seeking a better life from Europe originally, later China and later still Central and South America. These are all people who uprooted whatever lives they had and legally or illegally migrated to the US. IMHO you still see echoes of this "pioneering"…

What's interesting is that India (which has many languages throughout the country) pretty much adopted English as the de facto business language.

Are EU countries not the same? Genuinely don't know how English is perceived in these countries.

Although this is probably much easier for India since it is one country.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#295

Post by mikevm »

atq2119 wrote: post #253
myfavoritedog wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another comment pointed out, the small countries vs US Network effects excuse doesn't really fare well when you look at the successful startup environment of Israel. The USA is perfectly aware of this dynamic because faced with TikTok, their first reflex was to try to ban them. And this take is just hot garbage.

How many unicorns are from Israel, though? Israel should be lauded for managing to be an intensely vibrant and high-tech country, and European countries should try to learn from that, but even that is apparently not quite sufficient. So I think GP has a point.

https://www.techaviv.com/unicorns

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#296

Post by arp242 »

hef19898 wrote: post #143
krelian wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a European, I can only hope that our culture doesn't degrade itself to that degree. The question is whether Europe will be able to maintain its wealth - which is the main thing that makes possible the luxury of having a more relaxed lifestyle - in the long term while falling behind economically. Most of Europe's wealth is based around old world economy.

We already see a wealth gap between the North and South and the West and East. Also between the old and young. Not sure what that means for the future. Europes wealth is based, to a large extent, on hardware and a huge number of wealthy citizens. As long as hardware is a thing (not talking electronics but stuff like cars and so on), and we manage to not cut of the poorer 20-30% of society, Europe should do fine.

> We already see a wealth gap between the North and South and the West and East.

This has always existed; or at least has in modern history. It's hardly a new development, although the EU and Euro has brought this more to the forefront.

These kind of things ebb and flow anyway; if you look at the last few hundred years then concentrations of wealth have shifted all over the place. Some locations have gone from very wealthy to very poor and back to very wealthy again.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#298

Post by odiroot »

hef19898 wrote: post #155
csunbird wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question needs to be asked here is: Why there is a shortage of developers in Germany, while people having access to free education? One reason is that I can be paid three times more in the US, and with the extra disposable income, I can live a better life, even without the legal protections. Second reason is that, why should the kids even bother studying computer science for 4-6 years to earn 3k per month? A plum…

A plumber needs formal education, at least in Germany. Three years of it, to be exact. And then some more to run his own shop. Also, 100 an hour sounds great. That is without taken taxes, social security, operational costs, fix costs an so into account. Those plumbers getting wealthy are running their own shops, small legit enterprises. Final note: Any decent developer job I know of pays at least 3k, net, after taxes…

> operational costs, fix costs an so into account.

These are tax deductible.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#299

Post by kansface »

varjag wrote: post #118
sdevonoes wrote: post #89

> For one, we lack the imagination and vision to launch something without knowing how it might eventually make money I don't think there is lack of imagination. The biggest barrier for any person who wants to launch something is: paperwork around establishing a company. In some countries you have to pay every month some amount of money if you want to be a freelancer, in others you need to setup a sole proprietorship,…

> The biggest barrier for any person who wants to launch something is: paperwork around establishing a company. Seriously? Your plumber managed to establish a company. That kebab place across the street. The delivery guy subcontracting for courier service. And the company that wants to conquer the world can't?

I live in the US, but the plumber is just doing business in one jurisdiction and expects that business will continue to exist for years. Jumping through a bunch of hoops may not be worth what starts out at a couple hundred dollars a month. Lots of companies only accidentally conquer the world. If you put a barrier in front of any activity, you will get less of it in direct proportion to the height of the barrier.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#300

Post by thu2111 »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #221
thu2111 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft Apple and Amazon date from a time before saturation internet access, Amazon being created right at the start. Back then internet advertising wasn't a plausible business model. Even when Google was new it wasn't taken seriously in America. Google tried to sell to Yahoo for $1M and they said no because everyone knows you can't monetize web search. Once it became clear that ads were a bit more profitable than…

> Microsoft Apple and Amazon date from a time before saturation internet access, Amazon being created right at the start. Back then internet advertising wasn't a plausible business model. That doesn't explain why even that time, no such companies were founded in europe. I guess your thoughts on profitability are an attempt to explain that? I can't find data on when these companies became profitable, but at least for…

Yes, Apple and Microsoft are from a different generation when the rules of business still applied. Even Google is from the tail end of it, although they needed vast VC injections in the beginning and didn't really have a workable business model (but they knew it and saw it as a problem, hence their attempt to sell to Yahoo).

But there were lots of tech firms founded in Europe in the 1980s. ARM is the descendent of Acorn Computers which was the UK's attempt to compete with Apple, and that was just one of many examples. Acorn developed its own computers, its own RISC OS and so on.

If you look at the history of Acorn and the interviews with its founders, one of the things that killed them off was a small home market, very limited ability to sell into Europe and it being too difficult/slow to expand into the USA due to a variety of factors. So a lot of what you see discussed elsewhere on this thread.

And obviously Finland produced Nokia which ruled the roost for a long time in mobile, but again, most Americans don't realize that because Nokia managed to dominate everywhere except the USA, where a variety of structural barriers hindered growth.

SAP dates to that time too, I think. Possibly even earlier.

Post reply on HN