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Why we should end the data economy

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Re: Why we should end the data economy

#291

Post by slg »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #80
cs702 wrote: post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

This is a great list. SO many times people have said to me, "Let them track me, I've got nothing to hide." And you hit them with a few things off this list and they immediately change their mind. There should be a tinurl for website I can send people to that shows a simple list of all the ways personal information can be used.

I think these concerns still need to be translated into real world repercussions before the average person is convinced. Right now it is certainly creepy, but does it really have a negative impact on my life for a company to know these things?

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#293

Post by TchoBeer »

Judgmentality wrote: post #128
awillen wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's lazy when it doesn't come with a proposal to replace the stuff that you want to burn down. It's like the US tax code... it is insanely complicated and in a lot of ways doesn't serve the public well (because rich folks can use the complexity of it to escape taxation), so it's easy and popular to say let's just get rid of it and start with a new, simple tax code. The problem is it got to be the way it is for a rea…

> It's lazy when it doesn't come with a proposal to replace the stuff that you want to burn down. And what do we want to replace targeted ads, surreptitious tracking, and a system that exploits its users for money while not being held accountable to its users with? I'd say we're better off with nothing. So yes, in this instance, burn it all down actually is a solution. I'm aware I'm ignoring the externalities, I'm aw…

Presumably we want companies to be able to use user data to improve their product, so that's one thing we'd have to legislate around.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#294

Post by Cederfjard »

lanstin wrote: post #227
Cederfjard wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a complete and utter nightmare. You say that you think this would lead to a better society. That aside, how would you personally feel if this vision was to become reality? For me, I’m certain my mind being totally exposed like that would lead to debilitating mental illness and possibly even the loss of the will to live. I can’t imagine human beings, either as individuals or a collective, being fundamentally equi…

Did you ever read David Brin's The Transparent Society (used to be a web article, I think it might be a book now). He argues that as networking and miniaturization progress, and given the curiosity of 9 year olds, we have 2 choices: everyone has all data about everyone else, or, the powerful (gov't corps rich) have all data about everyone else, and the powerful have privacy. I'm not sure if I think that's true, but I…

All I can say is that this line of thinking makes me feel that we might be in for a bleak future indeed.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#295

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc »

saddlerustle wrote: post #250
9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dating sites would have that kind of data and have been breached in the past (Ashley Madison was one high profile instance, as I recall).

I don't recall the Ashley Madison leak having anything remotely similar to the data on OP's list.

I was replying a later comment that was considering whether that list should include knowing who you’ve slept with.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#296

Post by RGamma »

dgb23 wrote: post #286
RGamma wrote: post #284

Viewing the world through the data lens makes you blind to the things you didn't measure or that you cannot conceive a measurement for. It also stifles original thought that is conceived independent of how things are or what people like ("culture becomes stuck"). When dealing with data you need to be aware of your own unfixable shortcomings as an observer. And if you can influence people's behavior at scale you're no…

I've been thinking about data-driven AI systems that generate art, photography and the like. One thing about these systems is that they are always learning from past works. They don't create in the same chaotic - as you say - way as we do. Recognizing the limitation of these systems is key to be able to use them well and when not to use them.

These systems lack any form of coherent world view, artistic vision, moral imperative, culture or ability to reflect on their own surroundings, limitations and assumptions (higher-order thinking).

Even if one adds randomness to create new phenomena within their given framework, one can never compensate for that.

Uncarefully applied data-driven narratives have not enriched our thinking, they're blunting it. And they blind us to what could be.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#297

Post by Judgmentality »

TchoBeer wrote: post #293
Judgmentality wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's lazy when it doesn't come with a proposal to replace the stuff that you want to burn down. And what do we want to replace targeted ads, surreptitious tracking, and a system that exploits its users for money while not being held accountable to its users with? I'd say we're better off with nothing. So yes, in this instance, burn it all down actually is a solution. I'm aware I'm ignoring the externalities, I'm aw…

Presumably we want companies to be able to use user data to improve their product, so that's one thing we'd have to legislate around.

Someone else proposed what I consider a very reasonable solution. Just make whatever data they have 100% transparent, and you as the user can choose to offer less (or more) at any point in time. This should be regulated similar to HIPAA with serious penalties for any violations, because it absolutely is about avoiding privacy violations.

And if you as the user want to share no data at all, you should have that option. This is the company's problem, not the customer's problem - or at least that's the world I want to live in.

And obviously don't hide anything behind dark patterns, and all the other common sense gotchas. Violations should be treated as criminal fraud with prison time (assuming they are found guilty in a court of law, and proving criminal fraud is notoriously difficult but the threat needs to be real).

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#298

Post by TchoBeer »

dgb23 wrote: post #286
RGamma wrote: post #284

Viewing the world through the data lens makes you blind to the things you didn't measure or that you cannot conceive a measurement for. It also stifles original thought that is conceived independent of how things are or what people like ("culture becomes stuck"). When dealing with data you need to be aware of your own unfixable shortcomings as an observer. And if you can influence people's behavior at scale you're no…

I've been thinking about data-driven AI systems that generate art, photography and the like. One thing about these systems is that they are always learning from past works. They don't create in the same chaotic - as you say - way as we do. Recognizing the limitation of these systems is key to be able to use them well and when not to use them.

Human art is also based off of past works. Moreover, AI art tends to be more, not less, chaotic than human art.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#299

Post by momirlan »

slg wrote: post #291
SavantIdiot wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great list. SO many times people have said to me, "Let them track me, I've got nothing to hide." And you hit them with a few things off this list and they immediately change their mind. There should be a tinurl for website I can send people to that shows a simple list of all the ways personal information can be used.

I think these concerns still need to be translated into real world repercussions before the average person is convinced. Right now it is certainly creepy, but does it really have a negative impact on my life for a company to know these things?

I remember an interview with Edward Snowden where it was shown how little people cared about privacy. The interviewer then translated the concern into "the gov can see your dick pics". That was a no-no for most people

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#300

Post by dk775 »

not_jd_salinger wrote: post #95

The "data economy" is just an extension of the "Advertising Economy". Of course the idea of an "Advertising Economy" should cause people to pause a bit since advertising, by its nature, can only help maximize profits for somebody else. In theory the money that gets pumped into advertising can only be squeezed from the profits of other companies who are doing some optimization, weighing the cost of advertising vs the…

Damn sometime I think as an analyst in LE that the obsession with data while crime skyrockets is stupid. I also vehemently hate advertising. Never thought that the whole time I pivoted from public policy > stats > data as a result of advertising’s influence. Makes me sick, time to crawl back towards stats and get out of this world.
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