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Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

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Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#291

Post by pgwhalen »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #185
asmosoinio wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can find Slack conversations from years ago just fine, also link a lot to Slack in our ticketing system which is very useful. So for me Slack has become a second memory for technical and other details.

No useful threading in Slack, which is still one of its silliest issues. You must be using a paid version of Slack to see messages from a long time ago, as they have a limit on the no-cost version. This probably makes you dependent on your employer. When one switches between channels in Slack, oh boy is that think laggy! Sometimes I can wait for 5s, before the thing has switched, on a fairly modern CPU and up to date…

What is not useful about threading in slack? My organization uses it to great success.

Sure, it could be improved, but so can anything.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#292

Post by jjav »

babypuncher wrote: post #288
jjav wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then should we not amend the protocol to define these things? Most of the OP list of things they don't like are about client UI presentation. Inherently unrelated to the protocol itself. I don't have any of those issues because I use a client that does the interaction and presentation exactly how I like it.

You have some magical email client that turns "reply all" firehoses into clean Slack/Discord-style message threads?

Slack threads are the worst possible UI ever, so that's not something to aspire to.

Email threading is trivial, nothing magical about it. Most every decent email client will properly thread conversations. Gmail will not, so yes gmail is super painful for long threads. Use a better client.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#293

Post by jjav »

jameshart wrote: post #253
jjav wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then should we not amend the protocol to define these things? Most of the OP list of things they don't like are about client UI presentation. Inherently unrelated to the protocol itself. I don't have any of those issues because I use a client that does the interaction and presentation exactly how I like it.

I don’t understand how your client can solve for someone else sending you top-quoted replies, or word-html-engine compatible HTML designed to work in outlook. Or eighty other people hitting reply all on the email chain you’re on. The clients other people use can behave completely differently, because the protocol leaves so many decisions up to clients.

You're adding things not in the OP list I was responding to so I didn't claim that. But let's try:

Reformatting top-quoted replies. This is possible with email because you can pipe the messages through any preprocessing you want. Inserting custom processing into the delivery pipeline is generally impossible with all proprietary systems, but easy with an open standard like email.

HTML formatting: Again, easy due to customizable preprocessing and/or viewers.

Eighty people responding to a thread: This is threading, handled natively by most good email clients. Gmail makes a mess of it though, so I get why it'd be painful if you use gmail. Don't use gmail.

> because the protocol leaves so many decisions up to clients.

I feel like this is a misunderstanding. The clients have nothing to do with the protocol (SMTP), that's the job of the MTAs (mail transport agents).

The client provides the UI/UX interaction part. It is an immense strength of standards like email that there are tons of clients. You may want a completely different UX with your email than me, so you're free to have it exactly the way you want and so am I. And we can still message each other. This is impossible with proprietary walled gardens.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#294

Post by Siira »

ajdude wrote: post #281
Siira wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last paragraph can be done with a good IM, such as Telegram, as it has not crippled itself to virtue signal E2E, and has functional cloud sync and search. I even forward my emails to it as it’s easier to organize them there.

At this point, I use telegram for essentially everything, not just email either. I found this HN thread through the Hacker News telegram feed[0]. I don't check reddit, or have other RSS feeds anymore, I just subscribe to the equivalent telegram channels. I even use the "to me" telegram channel for searchable notes [0] https://t.me/hacker_news_feed

Creating these channels is pretty easy, BTW. Just glue rsstail and a Telegram library such as Telethon together. I have a channel where HN posts with a certain score threshold are posted, for example.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#295

Post by cgrealy »

twobitshifter wrote: post #271
cgrealy wrote: post #189

or.... use the appropriate medium/channel/whatever for what ever it is you're doing. My family has a group whatsapp chat. It's mostly for sending pics of my nieces and nephews and random conversations. Email would be terrible for that. Ditto, the literally decade old skype chat I've with friends. You can cook a meal with a campfire. If you put enough effort into it, you might even get a better result than cooking in…

what about email is terrible for that? Email can do everything WhatsApp can, look at these 2 email clients: https://www.spikenow.com/ https://delta.chat/en/

It can, but it generally doesn't. Compared to whatsapp, for this use case, it's a crap user experience.

I am not going to convince my elderly mother to use a new email client. She literally does not even know what an email client is.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#296

Post by pseudalopex »

paxys wrote: post #61
pseudalopex wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were 2 important adjectives before open.

What about secure and encrypted, which I feel are even more important adjectives?

I think they're important too. But it isn't responsive to what they said.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#297

Post by alex_g »

ihattendorf wrote: post #15
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worst of all, Gmail especially isn't great about tagging messages as spam My experience is the exact opposite of yours - I find Gmail's spam detection absolutely amazing. I get essentially zero spam in my inbox, and perhaps 4-6 false positives in the spam folder a month. >As a Gmail user, there is nothing you can do to verify that you're getting all of the legitimate mail traffic that is being sent to you. What oth…

> perhaps 4-6 false positives in the spam folder a month That's 4-6 valid messages a month the average user will never see.

Today I checked my spam folder for the first time in months, thanks to having read this thread.

Low and behold there was an email in there that was fairly important.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#298

Post by hrpnk »

dvt wrote: post #5

I don't think this kind of Luddism is useful. It's purported by the same kinds of people that, upon seeing a new SaaS, quickly retort: "couldn't you just do that with Google Docs/Word/pen and paper?" Not to mention that email absolutely sucks . The confusing threads, the forwarding, the constant CC'ing, someone making it or not making it into a list, the spam. It's absolute garbage. In fact, people have been seeking…

> the constant CC'ing

Isn't this exactly like adding/mentioning someone in a chat room? Problem is that in a chat room all communication is public and you're seeing/getting notified of every single small message. This is hugely inefficient. For e-mails, one can define filters to park e-mails where you're on CC to read later. You don't have this flexibility with Chat/Slack - the tool defines much more how you should be reading the incoming stream of messages.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#299

Post by chriswarbo »

benhurmarcel wrote: post #290
chriswarbo wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a heck of a claim. Could you give an example of such a "messaging app"? I don't have any "messaging apps"; although I do have a 'phone which supports SMS (I assume it supports email too, although I don't know how comfortable email would be without a physical keyboard). Do you have examples in mind about how my life might be "a lot more difficult" than if I installed the sorts of software you allude to?

For example, in Spain, people will not communicate in written form with you outside Whatsapp. You can try sending an SMS, they won't answer to not risk being charged. Your friends will communicate and organize events only on Whatsapp. Your colleagues will have social interactions on Whatsapp, even send you work messages when on the go. Your landlord will communicate via Whatsapp, including sending you utility bills t…

I'm not disagreeing with this, especially the social aspects, although I would point out:

> Your colleagues... even send you work messages when on the go.

> Your landlord will communicate via Whatsapp, including sending you utility bills to pay.

> The person you want to buy second-hand stuff from communicates via Whatsapp. The real estate agent trying to find you a place to live will send proposals by Whatsapp.

In each of these examples, the other party has something to gain (a client; a bill payment; offloading some work; etc.), which I'd wager is enough to tolerate the minor inconvenience of sending an SMS/email.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#300

Post by Zak »

packetlost wrote: post #279
Zak wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it has not crippled itself to virtue signal E2E It's worth considering that there's a place in the world for both a security-first IM system and a features-first IM system. While Telegram does offer optional encryption, I'm not sure I'd trust it if I wanted to hide the content of my communication from a sophisticated adversary.

If you're trying to hide your communications from state-level actors, there are better options than a consumer messaging platform

There might be if everyone in the conversation is sophisticated enough to use them. If you're trying to set up communication with a large number of people who have consumer-level technical knowledge in a country that had a coup two days ago and is now suffering a crackdown at the hands of the new military dictatorship, Signal might be just the ticket.
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