Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices • Hacker News Board

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#291

Post by LMYahooTFY » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

ascar wrote: post #272

LMYahooTFY wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since we can't reach common ground on basic facts, I see no reason to engage with you any further. I'm sorry, do you feel I'm not being generous in my interpretation? I certainly feel you're not, is that not a guideline here? >I can't believe I have to make this explicit, but ok. You don't have to, you misunderstood me. If a contract is flawed, is there a result other than 'misleading'? Do we expect all contracts t…

You are ignoring the evidence presented, ask open questions beside the point and attack him personally. That's not a way to have a discussion and it feels like you're acting on an agenda. > You don't have to, you misunderstood me. If a contract is flawed, is there a result other than 'misleading'? Or from further up > I'm curious if there's a way you can mess up language in a contract that isn't deceptive/misleading?…

What percentage of students need to be hired in programming roles before it's not a predatory scam?

> You are ignoring the evidence presented, ask open questions beside the point and attack him personally. That's not a way to have a discussion and it feels like you're acting on an agenda.

Where have I attacked him? Telling him I think he misunderstood me is attacking? Seriously?

To go over my initial contention here,

Austen's original statement:

"Their approval is a huge testament to our team and our students, as well as an official endorsement of our all-remote, career-focused educational model."

The user's response:

"The BPPE does not endorse schools. They simply said you were no longer operating illegally."

So, Austen clearly said approval, and then I would argue embellished it at worst, and I would further argue it's not unreasonable. "Approval" and "Endorsement" are literally synonyms.

Beyond that, the BPPE doesn't endorse schools, but it clearly does approve them.

Does the user's response seem a generous interpretation to you at all? Or should it not be?

> A contract can have clauses made in good will in the interest of both parties that turn out to be against the law. E.g. in my country copyright is absolutely nontransferable, but of course I wanna transfer the usage rights for paid work. If the contract would say my copyright is transferred rather than me transferring usage rights it's certainly wrong and against the law, but it's neither misleading nor deceptive of the intent behind the clause.

This is actually an answer to my question which the other user never addressed. How does this constitute me attacking him? Do I seem too ignorant to warrant an answer...?

At this point I feel I'm simply being high roaded. The other user clearly ignored or misunderstood many of my questions, and I'm not attacking him for acting in bad faith the way you're attacking me. If you'd like to address any other specific points I'm happy to continue discussion.

edit: spelling/grammar

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#292

Post by pbreit » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #259

pbreit wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically, California specifically forced them to create a special contract, different from the one they use everywhere else, that couldn't be discharged and then censured them for not clearly enough stating that the special California contract couldn't be discharged? Sounds very California.

I get the feeling you're arguing in bad faith here due to some axe you have to grind with California, but I'll try to clarify. Lambda was deceptive about the terms of their ISA (the one they now use everywhere but CA). CA's laws require lenders to disclose certain things to their customers, and Lambda didn't want to do that. So, being the childish dicks they so clearly are, they retaliated by creating new terms that…

I get the feeling you're arguing in bad faith here due to some axe you have to grind with Lambda.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#293

Post by vineyardmike » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #49

vineyardmike wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> education yielded economic gain for student What a sad narrow view of education. I recognize that for many education is a vocational experience meant to provide accesss to better jobs, but really education can be so much more broad and valuable.

I think it is very rude of you to have removed the other part of that sentence that addressed that. To then insult me based on this misreading is really boorish. If you are interested in conversing with me, please do not do that. Now, for anyone else reading for whom it wasn't clear: I want schools to primarily receive economic benefit by providing economic benefit but (quoting from above) I believe students should h…

It was not meant to be an insult, i simply think framing higher education against economic gain at all misses a lot of the value people derive from attending.

> Schools should only be paid if their education yielded economic gain for students but students should be permitted escape valves if possible.

This sentence reads (to me) as if "schools should only get paid if it leads to students making money" and the "escape valve" part seems like "students have an escape from paying when its not profitable" not "they can pay when its not profitable".

Under your new wording, I think that i still disagree. I think schools should charge however they want and instead of regulating how private institutions receive income, we should ensure that there are affordable options focused on vocational outcomes (state-run schools) that are so affordable that they are always economically gainful.

Some taxes are already based on income, so maybe in a profit-sharing model, attending state school is free but you share X% of income in taxes per credit-hour or per-semester until a certain cost is repaid to the state. (eg. a 100 credit hour degree costs 10% income at 0.1% per credit hour until $50k is repaid while a drop-out who attended for a single 15 credit hour semester pays 1.5%, while Harvard can charge 50k per semester up front to any one willing, regardless of outcome)

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#294

Post by reducesuffering » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #286

reducesuffering wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dang, is this a normal feature? Since when are users able to retroactively change the profile that made the comment? This looks like covering up a YC founder's past comment, but the archive still exists. According to snapshots it was modified over 2 years later.

We take care of privacy requests for HN users every day. 99% (maybe 99.9% – I haven't counted) of those users aren't YC founders. There's no special treatment. If you look at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html , there's an explanation there about how we usually don't delete entire account histories, but we do other things to help, and invite people to email us if they have concerns. There are tradeoffs between…

Appreciate the clarification that it's not YC-founder specific and a further read of your comments and newsfaq on this makes it clear the tradeoff between privacy and maintaining HN thread history, and I think the right choice has been made. Thanks

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#295

Post by wheelie_boy » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:13 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #287

wheelie_boy wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a feature available to mere mortals. Your assumption seems likely.

The full range of everything we do is available to anyone who asks. You have to email hn@ycombinator.com, as the FAQ explains ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html ), but there's no restriction on whom we help, or how. We help people who have abused this site for years and then ask us (sometimes exceedingly impolitely!) to clean up what they did, and we treat them the same way as we treat anyone; I may grit my…

Good to hear, I'm very happy to be corrected on this. Thanks!

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#296

Post by hluska » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:37 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #286

reducesuffering wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dang, is this a normal feature? Since when are users able to retroactively change the profile that made the comment? This looks like covering up a YC founder's past comment, but the archive still exists. According to snapshots it was modified over 2 years later.

We take care of privacy requests for HN users every day. 99% (maybe 99.9% – I haven't counted) of those users aren't YC founders. There's no special treatment. If you look at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html , there's an explanation there about how we usually don't delete entire account histories, but we do other things to help, and invite people to email us if they have concerns. There are tradeoffs between…

This is a really kind answer. You’re a good person and we’re all lucky to have you.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#297

Post by 40four » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 1:50 AM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #285

40four wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, my intuition tells me that the ‘pool’ will always be there. I’m not sure it’s dried up, I think it will always be there for one reason or an other. And it doesn’t seem like the job pool is drying up either. From what I can’t tell there are just as many job opportunities as when I started, and plenty of companies still complaining about not being able to find qualified candidates. PS: there was a reply I read an…

> and plenty of companies still complaining about not being able to find qualified candidates. This is completely missing the point: it's free to whine about a "labor shortage" (at the price you are willing to pay). Best case you'll get subsidies (direct or indirect) from the government. Worst case? Nothing happens.

I’m not sure I get your point? Best case you get government subsidies? What are you referring to? Worst case? I think I can think of a lot worse than ‘nothing’.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#298

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 9:32 AM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #261

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"loans can be discharged in bankruptcy." To me the idea that in a 'free country' today you cannot clear your debts through bancrupcy sounds crazy, it's a practice that belongs in history books along with debtor prisons, bondage, endentured servitude, feudalism, having public holiday 'execution day' and slavery. In the UK we used execute people for vagrancy.

In my country personal bankruptcy does not exist, never did. For us the idea that in a 'free country' one can take a loan and declare bankruptcy not to pay it back sounds crazy. This is evidence of cultural differences, nothing else - definitely not 'free country' or education.

[deleted]

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#299

Post by Siira » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #265

pkdpic_y9k wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally valid but just feel like I have to throw in that I went to a bootcamp, was very suspicious from the earliest stages of consideration but found on the other side that all the friends I made there who attended-even the one that failed out and went to another bootcamp-went from part time jobs making less than 30k a year to legit software engineering positions making 60~120k in less than a year. Im still surprise…

> That said it was the most competitive and highest ranked bootcamp then and now You're allowed to say who it is - in fact, I think you should say who it is, reward quality and hard work! Also, you might mention who does the ranking (possibly more important).

Naming them substantially decreases the credibility of the post, and increases the probability of it being an ad. Better not to name them.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#300

Post by PKop » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

pbreit wrote: post #247

nl wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also not clear they had anything to gain. The resell the debt to investors[1]. If students think these debts have to be repaid even if they don't then they are more valuable so yes, the school has something to gain. [1] https://inside.com/campaigns/inside-dev-2020-02-13-21344/sec...

They don't resell all the debt. And this make Lambda FAR less attractive. And if someone is going into bankruptcy it would be over far more than 17% of their salary. In which case they would find out if it's dischargeable or not.

>And this make Lambda FAR less attractive

This is only relevant if the revenue lost from those that don't sign up out of fear of not being able to pay back the loans, exceeds the number of students who do sign up and would seek bankruptcy if it was dischargeable but don't having been told it isn't.

Just like the student debt problem in general, I'd imagine most students seeking to attend the school are optimistic they can pay it back, whether this ends up being true or not, so this proposed effect is minimal.

Also, some portion of those that wouldn't sign up out of fear of un-dischargeable debt, would, if it was dischargeable, not end up paying back some of this debt to Lambda School. So earning their trust as customers isn't much of a net benefit.

Putting all of these points aside, why did they do it? If it made their school overall less attractive to a point of diminished revenue, this would have been doubly stupid as it added regulatory risk since they were violating a law. Common sense tells us they were doing it because they saw it as beneficial.