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Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

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Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#291

Post by mywittyname »

austincheney wrote: post #188
awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

> or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree) I so completely disagree. College/university is for education. If you want skills go to a trade school and save a truck load of money. As an example lawyers and doctors don’t gain skills in law/medical school. They are required to slosh through forced internships for that. CompSci graduates can’t tell the difference becaus…

> It takes substantially more to become a truck driver than it does to be a software developer.

More what? Licenses? License != skills.

A CDL isn't exactly difficult to get. Being healthy and having the ability to see is probably the most difficult aspect. The technical sections contain information that you have to learn or be taught, but it's very high level and most people can learn the material in about a hour or two of study per section.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#292

Post by musicale »

gonehome wrote: post #17
awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

> Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero

If that is true it probably says more about the short-sightedness of the job market rather than the practical benefits of a program in Classics.

A Classics education – like CS in fact – actually has wide applicability over a range of disciplines. There is a reason we call things "Humanities" after all. Greek and Latin classics, for example, have proven their value and relevance to humanity over centuries if not millennia! They are unlikely to become obsolete any time soon.

Classics graduates are likely to have superior reading and writing skills compared to a typical CS graduate. And the complexity of real languages like Latin or Greek puts computer "languages" to shame.

Moreover, it's a lot easier to learn CS on your own or on the job. ;-)

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#293

Post by phabora »

minitoar wrote: post #16
DC-3 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it ever occur to you at all that people might value education for its own sake and not for potential financial yield alone?

I don’t think most people going to 3rd-tier college to study humanities are doing it out of some abstract love of education. They’re doing it because every adult or counselor in their life told them they have to go to some college no matter what.

> I don’t think most people going to 3rd-tier college to study humanities are doing it out of some abstract love of education.

Well, the fact that they are third-tier already tells you that they won’t get some cushy job from the education by itself.

Are they necessarily doing it for the love of education? Probably not. But I suspect that that motivation is more likely to be found in them than the students at the top-tier institutions that will be welcomed by the open embrace of six-figure salaries and social status once they graduate.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#294

Post by antihero »

awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

Your second sentence is indicative of the toxic attitude to the world that appears to be rooted in or at least exacerbated by capitalism.

Isn't this a damning statement on the market that it purely incentivises doings that create monetary value, and puts theose that create other extremely important value in the world (the thirst for knowledge, the study of the arts and history, etc) are either "failing" due to not being profitable endeavours, or only in the grasp of the rich and the select few who get scholarships?

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#295

Post by skynet-9000 »

lumost wrote: post #136
cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that happen? I come from a time where my private university tuition (before grants, financial aid, etc) was around $25k/yr, and I understand things are different today. I don't know all the ins-and-outs of today's student loan options, but say that 120k is taken at 5% spread across 20(!) years, the monthly payment on that kind of loan is around $800/mo. Did this person not have a clear idea of what recent co…

There's a big sunk cost falacy at play. English is one of the most common majors at Umass, and the university isn't exactly forthcoming about the job prospects for this major. This person was the first to go to college in their family - but their parents had become modestly successfuly in the trades meaning they made ~100k combined in the Boston area. 100k is enough to push you out of substantial financial aid, but i…

> The debt did ensure I stopped pursuing grad school for physics as the math became impossible to justify.

I appreciate that this comment can be read two different ways.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#296

Post by hardtke »

gonehome wrote: post #17
awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

> Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero?

Maybe I am deluding myself because my daughter has decided to get an expensive classics degree, but the most valuable skill one can acquire in college is how to communicate, particularly how to write well. The second most valuable skill is learning how to master complicated material. Each major teaches these skills in a different way, but the value of learning these skills is basically the same however you accomplish it. It might be easier to get a high paying job right out of school with a CS degree, but the ability to communicate and the ability to learn will still pay dividends long after your technical knowledge is obsolete.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#297

Post by filoleg »

bilegeek wrote: post #226
filoleg wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>UW offers three-year degrees. Not just in Canadian universities, I believe it is pretty common and the parent commenter is just not aware. I went to Georgia Tech, a public school in Atlanta. While the "planned" curriculum is supposed to fit in 4 years, the median is actually around 4.5-5 years. But there are some people who manage to graduate in 3.5 or 3 years (I know 2 of those personally). In most schools in the U…

>Of course some classes have prerequisites and time overlaps One semester is designed with a particular set of prerequisites in mind. Most times, one prerequisite holds back every other class on the career path. So, if you don't take that one class that semester, you can only take the elective courses until you take that class. Which means that when you run out of electives, what was supposed to be one semester becom…

It all heavily depends on how your specific college manages your curriculum and how open the choices are.

My personal example: decided to ignore most of the general studies classes I could ignore (aka those that weren't prereqs for any major-related classes, like most social studies) for the first year, did two 14-16 hour semesters for the first year, about 12 hours (each semester) for the second and third year (aka minimum required to be considered full time), took one fall semester off and then did one summer semester instead, and then finished off my last year with two back-to-back 22-24 hour semesters (during which I took a lot of those classes I ignored during my first year).

My school let us do it pretty much free-form, and it was amazing. Taking all the important major-related classes early on let me become knowledgeable enough for internships before a lot of peers (since I ended up taking some important major classes a semester or two ahead instead of taking gen ed classes like a lot of others did at the time), and during my last year I got a bit of a break by taking some of those "general ed" classes that most of my peers took early on.

I love this system, because it allows people to balance it all as they see fit. Some people would like to get all the gen ed classes out of the way first. Some would want to save them for last. Some would like to take them regularly at a "one general ed class per semester" pace. Some people would like to just do 16 credit hours every semester. Some would like to slow down at times and them ramp up heavily at times (which is what I did). Some would like to graduate early, others would like to take their time. Whichever style works for you.

And yeah, we had a general guideline for every major, with every class planned out every semester serving as a "sample workload", but it was just a guideline. Most people followed it to a degree, but not close. Others completely threw it out of the window, because they sorta knew what and how they wanted to do it. I think it is helpful to have for those who don't want to plan out things to their max efficiency and just want to not worry about it. But it isn't something that everyone is forced to abide by, it is more like an advice.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#298

Post by gonehome »

musicale wrote: post #292
gonehome wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

> Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero If that is true it probably says more about the short-sightedness of the job market rather than the practical benefits of a program in Classics. A Classics education – like CS in fact – actually has wide applicability over a range of disciplines. There is a reason we call things "Humanities" after al…

> “Classics graduates are also likely to have superior reading and writing skills compared to a typical CS graduate.”

“Typical” might be doing a lot of work there. I wouldn’t buy it in the general case.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#299

Post by dragonwriter »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #290
gonehome wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

The student loan system created artificial demand. Demand increases price. Students get larger loans because it's easy. Demand continues. Prices rise more, and so on. Price will rise as much as the market can bear. Banks make out well. Higher edu makes out well. Politicians make out well. Students and often their parents lose. That said, students and parents have alternatives - e.g., two years of community college an…

> That said, students and parents have alternatives - e.g., two years of community college and then transfer for two more years where a degree would have more prestige

Non-public prestige schools aren't particularly favorable to transfers generally or CC transfers particularly, finding a community college with programs in a given field that would support transfer to a prestige school is difficult, and CCs aren't really geared to nonlocal students and often the surrounding community is not student supportive the way university towns can be. CCs do save on tuition and registration fees, but often don't save on lab fees, books, and living expenses, and rarely have any significant campus-based aid, which can make them more expensive for some students than “prestige” universities.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#300

Post by kbos87 »

albntomat0 wrote: post #282
kbos87 wrote: post #262

As someone who never did well with standardized tests, it’s frustrating to see evidence like this of how heavily they are still weighed in the college admissions process, even though it isn’t surprising. If I were applying to universities today and had otherwise good credentials but difficulties performing on standardized tests like the SATs, I wouldn’t feel an ounce of remorse for trying to cheat in a rigged system.

What are your thoughts on standardized tests as the most standard (not sure what a better word is here) comparison between applicants? I recognize that a lot has been written about the SAT/etc being biased, but high school grades and "experiences" are worse (how does one compare what a "B" in Calculus or club president actually means, in all high schools across the US??).

I agree with you that comparing applicants objectively is a tough nut to crack. I don’t know the right answer but I would imagine looking at as diverse a set of inputs as possible is a good starting point; I could also see universities coming up with some means of weighing inputs differently to not let any one input (like standardized test scores) be an arbitrary disqualifier. But until that’s the case, I don’t think individuals should feel guilt for not letting a flawed system run them over, even if that means needing to “cheat”.
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