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TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

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Re: TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

#291

Post by alistairSH »

tehjoker wrote: post #218
alistairSH wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way to think about it is that Lobbyists have changed, i think, from the voice of a group of people to a voice instead of a group of people. Leaving many people voiceless in the face of insane capital and influence. I'm not convinced this is true. If a lobbyist is not speaking on behalf of people, who are they speaking for? After all, corporations are just legal entities composed of people - with stockholders/…

A corporation benefits a few, is wealthy, and controls the means of production. They can make material threats and promises that ordinary people cannot by virtue of owning little except their labor.

A corporation benefits all of its owners (and hopefully its employees too, though that's not a given, sadly). In the case of Apple or Dow or Boeing, that's millions of people.

Ordinary people are free to combine their voice via unions or their own lobbyists.

Communicating with your representatives is protected speech. The problem is campaign finance.

Re: TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

#292

Post by lotsofpulp »

indymike wrote: post #290
lotsofpulp wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A tax incentive that is legal (i.e. mortgage interest deduction) would be illegal as a giveaway (giving money to only taxpayers with mortgages) as it would fail equal protection under the law. This is a good thing, exactly the type of corruption that needs to be eliminated. >For example, if I take deductions for my dependents on my w-2, I have less money taken out of my paycheck. The other way around, no loopholes,…

"This is a good thing, exactly the type of corruption that needs to be eliminated." I'm not sure this is corruption. Encouraging people to buy a home instead of rent is largely viewed as a positive thing. Helping people afford to have kids is a good thing. Encouraging people to favor green energy is a good thing. Encouraging people to buy a giant SUV like we did in the 90s and 00s? Not as good. "I do not understand w…

>I'm not sure this is corruption. Encouraging people to buy a home instead of rent is largely viewed as a positive thing.

A mortgage interest tax deduction rewards people who purchase a home by borrowing money. The more you borrow, the more you are rewarded. It does not reward purchasing a home. It also disproportionately rewards people who are able to borrow money for a home, and punishes those who cannot, such as descendants of slaves who may not have grown up with the necessary resources to establish the necessary income and credit in order to borrow. Or get past the redlining. And last, but not least, it's a handout to the mortgage banking industry who now has a subsidy for the product they sell.

This simple example shows how easily deductions are corrupted. It's not even really encouraging people to buy a home, as that would have been a simple deduction for a home's purchase price. It's encouraging people to borrow to buy a home.

That's all leaving aside the separate debate of whether or not the government should be rewarding home purchases or not.

>Helping people afford to have kids is a good thing.

How is a deduction/credit on taxes anywhere near the optimal way to achieve this? The government can simply give people cash if it wanted to. The government could provide better parental leave if it wanted to. The government could provide healthcare if it wanted to. A $2k tax credit and a $3k deduction for childcare is far down the list of things that make kids affordable.

>Encouraging people to favor green energy is a good thing.

Or we could be more straightforward and tax fossil fuels for the externalities they cause, thereby raising the price of fossil fuels and making green energy a more sensible option to choose. But that would be bad for our resource consumption driven economy that depends on increasing consumption to meet the budgeted increases in revenues to pay for the ever accumulating debt.

>I would pay more in tax (no deduction) and have to wait for the government to pay me for the kids. They would be taking a loan out of every paycheck. Incidentally, the current income tax system where employers withhold and you get a refund for overpayment is a form of banking on taxpayers. Allowing people with dependents to declare them and reduce the amount withheld is very helpful to lots of not-so-wealthy people's personal cash flow.

This is all clerical. There's no reason the government can't electronically deposit money into your account every week or 2 weeks.

Re: TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

#293

Post by kristopolous »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #252
kristopolous wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say that? You know they are intentionally difficult in the US? For instance, there's been legislation where the IRS would simply tell you how much you owe and you pay it or dispute it. The IRS already know this amount, because this is what eventually happens. Turbotax successfully lobbied for its defeat. It explicitly spends large amounts of money to complicate and convolute the system and structure it…

One of the major challenges with the US system is that the central authorities do not have much of the individual tax information all submitted and processed in advance of the individual taxes. The individual then has to to incorporate this information and file it. Sometimes individuals get amended taxTax information from their income sources and then have to re-file. The central authorities cross check on the backen…

No. This is not correct.

https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre...

California piloted a pre-filled tax return system (similar to Sweden and Australias, that the OP was talking about) called ReadyReturn in 2005 with 51,000 people.

Intuit then spent $3 million to smash it. They lobbied and then sued the state to stop the program. They are also profoundly incompetent technologists. There's an entire subreddit dedicated to how broken their stuff is (https://www.reddit.com/r/TurboTax/top/?t=all)

What did the participants of ReadyReturn, the pre-fille forms, think of the government program that Intuit killed?

"99% stated they were satisfied with ReadyReturn, 97% stated this is the type of service government should provide, 96% stated it was more convenient than how they filed in the past, 95% stated it saved them time, and 98% stated they would use it again"

Once again private interests sabotage and destroy the public will.

The line of "the reason taxes are so difficult..." is from sheer propaganda shills. Tax simplification has happened, it worked, and Intuit killed it every time. The reason is Intuit. They are the buggy whip industry that won. Shameless grifters that intentionally disrupt people's lives for profit.

Use another service. Any listed on the IRS website: https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/browse-all-offers ... Never give Intuit a dime and click on every ad you see from them.

Re: TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

#294

Post by stjohnswarts »

cycomanic wrote: post #145
DavidPeiffer wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And yet what am I going to do but use turbo tax again. The perceived risk and effort of using a non-automated system to fill them out doesn't seem worth the cost. I'd suggest FreeTaxUSA.com as an alternative. Federal is always free, and state taxes are ~12/state. I don't have anything obscure about my taxes, and their forms indicate they can handle much more complicated situations than I have. I've used them for 3 y…

Here in Sweden I go to the tax office website, log in, have a brief look at that all my salary has been correctly entered (I have yet to encounter that it hasn't) add if I possibly want to deduct some extra things (also very uncomplicated), go to file and click send (the whole thing can even be done on mobile) . The process typically takes 20min max, Australia was quite similar. I'm always amazed by tax systems which…

If you don't have a lot of investment type stuff in the USA then tax forms are a breeze. They really should be zero effort but it's not hard.

Re: TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

#295

Post by stjohnswarts »

kristopolous wrote: post #224
spullara wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your taxes are easy in Sweden / Australia they would be easy in the US.

What makes you say that? You know they are intentionally difficult in the US? For instance, there's been legislation where the IRS would simply tell you how much you owe and you pay it or dispute it. The IRS already know this amount, because this is what eventually happens. Turbotax successfully lobbied for its defeat. It explicitly spends large amounts of money to complicate and convolute the system and structure it…

1040ez is quite easy. I still believe that IRS could just accept you signing that you made a certain amount and these are your deductions. They have the same information that I do, I seriously think they like auditing people.

Re: TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

#296

Post by indymike »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #292
indymike wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is a good thing, exactly the type of corruption that needs to be eliminated." I'm not sure this is corruption. Encouraging people to buy a home instead of rent is largely viewed as a positive thing. Helping people afford to have kids is a good thing. Encouraging people to favor green energy is a good thing. Encouraging people to buy a giant SUV like we did in the 90s and 00s? Not as good. "I do not understand w…

>I'm not sure this is corruption. Encouraging people to buy a home instead of rent is largely viewed as a positive thing. A mortgage interest tax deduction rewards people who purchase a home by borrowing money. The more you borrow, the more you are rewarded. It does not reward purchasing a home. It also disproportionately rewards people who are able to borrow money for a home, and punishes those who cannot, such as d…

I really don't see any value in debating ethics here. Tax policy is no different than spending policy - it's a tool and can be wielded for better or worse. Sometimes, government gets it right. Other times not. Governments, democracies especially, are made of humans.

Re: TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

#297

Post by tehjoker »

alistairSH wrote: post #291
tehjoker wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A corporation benefits a few, is wealthy, and controls the means of production. They can make material threats and promises that ordinary people cannot by virtue of owning little except their labor.

A corporation benefits all of its owners (and hopefully its employees too, though that's not a given, sadly). In the case of Apple or Dow or Boeing, that's millions of people. Ordinary people are free to combine their voice via unions or their own lobbyists. Communicating with your representatives is protected speech. The problem is campaign finance.

Unfortunately, millions of people is still less than 4% of the US population generously.

Employees are a cost center. The idea is to get as much as possible for as low a cost as possible. That's business and why employees can only win if they band together because they'd like to get as much as possible for as little work as possible. Those are diametrically opposed interests. You can change that equation a lot if the employees are the owners.

Re: TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

#298

Post by alfalfasprout »

Frankly, the US' overly complicated tax code ends up backfiring. It's of course compounded by Intuit lobbying against simplified filing.

For starters, there's so much complexity to it that unless you use software like this or a CPA it's almost certainly the case you're leaving money on the table. And it also means that if you're a very high net worth individual there are a lot of loopholes that allow you to defer or significantly reduce your tax burden.

Re: TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

#299

Post by gwright »

yboris wrote: post #188
gwright wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And tell me again why lobbying is legal The 1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law [...] abridging [...] the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. This is the core idea, but obviously the concept of "lobbying" embodies a lot more than just assembly and petitioning in current usage. I do think it is important to realize that we do have a right to ad…

Giving money or paying for a dinner doesn't seem like "assembly and petitioning". It is illegal to bribe a cop. It doesn't seem like "a clever loophole" to buy the police department new equipment - it still seems like a bribe to me. There's no legal reason we can't craft law to be different than it currently is, closing these "loopholes". Campaign finance reform (publicly financing campaigns and limiting campaign spe…

> There's no legal reason we can't craft law to be different than it currently is,

Of course. I didn't say differently. But lots of people don't understand the conceptual relationship to "lobbying" and the 1st amendment and I thought it was worth pointing that out.

Re: TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)

#300

Post by tharkun__ »

cycomanic wrote: post #286
foepys wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to file taxes in Germany except if you and your spouse are filing together or if you are self employed. Everything else is being handled by your employer. If you want to get some of your pre-paid taxes back, you will have to file but the tax office doesn't care if you don't.

To be honest I don't know how it is now, but I remember my parents always having an accountant because it was just so much easier to deal with this, and they were a teacher and psychologist (not self employed), without any significant additional income.

Having an accountant do it in that situation is so not worth it. I know my parents also used one for way too long. So easy with tax software and with the government software you don't even have to pay for the software any longer.

Fun fact, they called the government provided tax software ELSTER which in German is also the name of a bird (Eurasian magpie) which is also known as the "thieving magpie". Who said the government didn't have a sense of humor!

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