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Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future

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Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future

#291
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percent of the electricity used by Bitcoin miners is generated by fossil fuels? My impression is that most miners are located to take advantage of locales with very cheap hydroelectric/geothermal or take advantage of subsidized/overbuilt renewables. But I could be wrong. Any data on this?

If they're on an electric grid that also has fossil fuels, then it doesn't really matter. More clean energy to them is less to other customers, who have to make up for it with more fossil.

That really isn't how most grids work. There are large times where prices are now negative because of oversupply of renewables.

Mining by it's nature has energy as its largest input cost, so it chases lower and more efficient sources of energy which are largely renewable energy

Further, good renewable sources are often poorly located for electricity distribution. You have situations where the power wouldn't otherwise be used, so it is being tapped into Bitcoin.

Iceland has a pretty much infinite supply of clean energy with geothermal. They're not interconnected to the grid so previously they would export that energy via aluminum, today they can export it with bitcoin and other processing (colo compute)

Georgia has also become a destination for bitcoin mining and it is largely hydro power

The reports on what bitcoin's proportion of renewable sources vary very widely from ~75%[0] and ~25%[1]

You can debate the methodologies of these estimates all day - but one thing to note is that the worst case estimates take an emissions factor which is average _for an entire country_ - while large scale mining operations (which account for the vast majority of mining) are often colocated in specific cheaper regions, usually around hydro/renewable power

The only X factor is that a lot of energy for bitcoin is sourced corruptly. The Chinese are already some way towards resolving that (they have an incentive to!) and shut down the heavily subsidized dirty mining that was happening[2]

My main takeaway is that the trends points to bitcoin eventually becoming a lot more efficient, and potentially can be used as a regulating mechanism on grids or as a way to export energy from renewable sources that aren't well interconnected

[0] https://coinshares.com/research/bitcoin-mining-network-decem...

[1] https://www.cell.com/joule/fulltext/S2542-4351(19)30255-7

[2] https://www.coindesk.com/bitmain-ebang-bitcoin-mining-energy...

Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future

#293
post #3

Legitimizing Bitcoin more than offsets the environmental benefits of electric vehicles.

Our biggest environmental footprints as individuals are heating and cooling. Having an electric car is nothing compared to it. Take one intercontinental flight and again, having a fossil fuel car for a year does not exceed the emissions of that flight. http://www.withouthotair.com/ Legitimizing Bitcoin has nothing to do with the environment in the large scale of things. It's like saying that you need to optimize fast…

That's a terrible analogy! Bitcoin is a runaway feedback loop where scarcity drives rising price, which drives increasing energy usage. The equilibrium it maintains is the natural profit equilibrium where it makes sense to spend enough energy (money) to "mine" a bitcoin for anything less than the current price. But due to the built in supply decreases, that price rises, so the energy use continually increases, because there's always someone willing to spend $9 to make $10.

It doesn't have a stopping point, or brakes, and at each point, it is in the interest of the frog to raise the temperature of its water by one more degree.

If I was a hostile AI and wanted universe-scale civilization destruction at near zero-cost, I'd send each civilization the bitcoin "thought-bomb." All the AI has to do is share the bitcoin discovery, perhaps anonymously. Once that is done, it puts it in the short term interest of the metaphorical frogs to boil themselves, and speed along the inevitable natural tragedy of the commons outcome.

Right now, bitcoin is like a program with bad big O math, and we are looking at it while x=2 and concluding everything is great.

Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our biggest environmental footprints as individuals are heating and cooling. Having an electric car is nothing compared to it. Take one intercontinental flight and again, having a fossil fuel car for a year does not exceed the emissions of that flight. http://www.withouthotair.com/ Legitimizing Bitcoin has nothing to do with the environment in the large scale of things. It's like saying that you need to optimize fast…

> Our biggest environmental footprints as individuals are heating and cooling. Having an electric car is nothing compared to it. Isn't Tesla aiming to electrify everything and then use clean energy as the source of the electricity? At the moment running heating or cooling should be clean as long as the energy is coming from a renewable source, right? > Take one intercontinental flight and again, having a fossil fuel…

> For the entire flight, right? I would be curious how much driving one seat on a flight equates to. I presume flying is at least better than driving on a per-mile basis?

You can’t compare the two so cleanly as to conclude with a simple this is better than that. There’s different effects of different types of pollutions at different altitudes, some unknown. Brake dust, the knock on effects of needing more road due to more miles driven, the infrastructure required to operate an airport, etc.

Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future

#295

One can hope this doesn't cause full-blown mania, followed by a crash. On it's own, this is a bullish development for BTC, but everything Elon touches, tends to generate a lot of hype... could be too much.

One can hope that it does.

Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"pedo guy" was the thing that broke the camel's back for me. When you have millions of followers and billions of airtime on you, it's absolutely inexcusable to call a random guy a pedo. When he did that my view of him went from a "fake it till you make it" type, to a dishonest and malicious person.

So when he insulted someone he was having a dispute with, you decided to discount his life’s work?

It is one thing for a normal person to insult somebody, but someone like Elon has a greater responsibility with his platform.

It is also not OK in general to accuse people of being a pedophile! Not sure why that is controversial.

There are lots of examples of important artists, politicians, scientists, etc, who were total jerks and dirtbags. I think it is fine to recognize them for their talents and achievements but also call out their faults too. It isn't mutually exclusive.

Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future

#297
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is the bull case for bitcoin? I have not seen it clearly explained. I’ve got an open mind. In more specific terms you mentioned the unbanked. How does crypto solve the problems that leave them unbanked?

Why has gold prevailed over thousands of years while almost all fiat currencies went to 0?

Gold stores value but it hasn’t really appreciated. Whereas the claim for bitcoin is that it will soar in value. Why?

Warren Buffett said it best on gold. It just sits there. Here’s one quote I found. In another he compared buying gold in 1900 vs us stocks.

“ I will say this about gold. If you took all the gold in the world, it would roughly make a cube 67 feet on a side…Now for that same cube of gold, it would be worth at today’s market prices about $7 trillion dollars – that’s probably about a third of the value of all the stocks in the United States…For $7 trillion dollars…you could have all the farmland in the United States, you could have about seven Exxon Mobils, and you could have a trillion dollars of walking-around money…And if you offered me the choice of looking at some 67 foot cube of gold and looking at it all day, and you know me touching it and fondling it occasionally…Call me crazy, but I’ll take the farmland and the Exxon Mobils.” I

Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future

#298

Cryptocurrency is a blind spot where Hacker News’ normal optimism towards innovation has disappointed for a decade. May this thread be one we can reference years later as another example of “our collective opinions can be very wrong about technologies that were transformative in hindsight.” Innovators, follow regulations and go for it. Don’t let the HN crowd get you down. Few of these commenters have ever been unbank…

This thread isn't about innovation, though? Tesla isn't directing $1.5B towards future applications or research into cryptocurrency; they're making a $1.5B bet that a single specific cryptocurrency will be worth more in the future.

Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future

#299
post #24

Musk has been pumping Doge on his Twitter feed a lot too. I wonder how much if this is about Musk thumbing his nose at the mainstream finance industry that he so clearly loathes as it is about anything approaching a valid business plan.

Interesting. Assuming he wants to see the finance industry burn, what might his next step be?

Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future

#300
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can send or receive cryptocurrency without third party authorization.

But why does that require a specific monetary value for bitcoin? And doesn’t this apply to any cryotocurrency?

it doesn't. People just like to exchange it for real money. There's no real need, everyone just still prices things in USD instead of btc. Once btc has around a $20T market cap, it will be much less volatile.
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