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China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

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Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#291

Post by onethought »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #275
brabel wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to get things straight: everyone should praise the rise of Chinese people's living standards, which has been astonishing in the last 45 years or so, and has taken 850 million people out of poverty[0]! This is not something a reasonable person can argue against! The increase in human wellbeing in the whole planet has been almost entirely due to the Chinese in the last 50 years. That doest' mean we should prais…

Your last point is salient and I think lost on many westerners who have not studied Chinese history. Chinese civil wars (for lack of a better term to capture the sheer scale and complexity) have had body counts that make the American Civil War look like a drunken bar fight.

And, there is a history of advantage being taken of China during its civil wars. It hasn’t forgotten any of that, and it’s in the National psyche as something that needs to be balanced in the future.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#292

Post by onethought »

bosswipe wrote: post #203
brabel wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to get things straight: everyone should praise the rise of Chinese people's living standards, which has been astonishing in the last 45 years or so, and has taken 850 million people out of poverty[0]! This is not something a reasonable person can argue against! The increase in human wellbeing in the whole planet has been almost entirely due to the Chinese in the last 50 years. That doest' mean we should prais…

> 850 million people out of poverty. This is not something a reasonable person can argue against! I'd argue against it on the grounds that the planet doesn't have enough resources for everyone to live a middle class lifestyle.

But that’s not true... it does. Maybe not of US consumption levels... but the US need to sort that out.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#293

Post by pessimizer »

reaperducer wrote: post #67
thewarrior wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. It isn’t really a credible source.

Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. "Deep ties to US agencies" is sensationalizing the facts. It's part of the United States government, and nobody has ever tried to keep that secret. Not RFA, not the U.S. Government. Nobody. "Deep ties" makes it seem like it's trying to be covert. It's not. It isn’t really a credible source. It's one of the more credible sources of news in Asia. Especially for more authori…

> "Deep ties to US agencies" is sensationalizing the facts.

It's not sensationalizing the facts, it's minimizing the facts. It's a pure propaganda project meant to manipulate public opinion outside of the US. It's the Asian version of Radio Marti, or Radio Free Europe. Funded by the U.S. taxpayers, run by the U.S. government, to improve the image of the U.S. in the world, to strengthen friendly governments and to weaken government enemies.

It is an overt propaganda machine, but fully available for covert agencies to use as part of any project they wish. A great way to use it is to float a story, then get more legitimate outlets to report on the story using it as the source.

It's like BBC News, if the BBC didn't broadcast to British people and was explicitly conceived as a propaganda arm of the government. So not really much like BBC news.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#294

Post by baybal2 »

justicezyx wrote: post #114
baybal2 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As such, I do welcome campaign like the poverty elimination [1]. Which is inits entirety a propaganda campaign. I have peers from all across China, poorest parts included. All what 6 people saw were a photoshoot, and a potemkin village.

If you read the article I posted, you'll see that is not a positive report on the campaign. You shall understand that the CCP model is bound to such lipstick cover-up. But I firmly support the whole idea of eliminating poverty with the accumulated wealth. Essentially a form of compensation by transferring some wealth.

> But I firmly support the whole idea of eliminating poverty with the accumulated wealth. Essentially a form of compensation by transferring some wealth.

No wealth ever changed hands. PM Li's saying of 600m Chinese still living on CNY1000 a month is 100% real.

Why would bolos would in their sane mind empower their enemies, by transfering wealth to them?

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#295

Post by pessimizer »

creato wrote: post #152
throw7482625 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s literally the definition of propaganda. Why is it so difficult for Americans to believe that the US engages in a war of propaganda against countries it labels as “adversaries”? [1] [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...

I think the disconnect here is that at least for a large part of RFA/RFE's history, simply broadcasting fair and accurate news was effective "propaganda". Whether that's still true today or not is not something that anyone here is going to agree on.

They never "simply" did this. They often did this, when the truth was good news for them, but so does RT.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#296

Post by hker »

jjcc wrote: post #227
jonathannat wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The era of CCP economic rise is over. Middle income trap and aging demographics dictate as much. CCP will now have to contend with - internal turmoil - political infighting - encirclement by democracies (India, Japan, Australia, US, UK, Canada, France, South Korea, Taiwan). Once Merkel is out in sept 2021, Germany will be onboard - negative sentiment from most of population in the world due to covid - exploding debt/…

Maybe your analysis make sense. But I often look opposite analysis to defeat the algorithm of social media. Personally I think it's partially responsible for there are 2 different realities that lead to the Jan 6 Capitol event. Here's a piece that draws quite different picture from yours. https://worldaffairs.blog/2020/12/31/from-terrified-to-trium...

When comparing the outcome of covid, I think we need to consider more than the response of the government. The civil society played a key role, too.

Regarding covid, Taiwan did very well, despite being very close to China.

- The government responded quickly, tracing everyone who entered Taiwan to control for spread of covid.

- The civil society took it seriously, with the experience of SARS.

Taiwan beat covid because the society has trust in science and the government [1].

[1]: https://www.wired.com/story/how-taiwans-unlikely-digital-min...

P.S. your link has a very pro-Beijing tone throughout:

- It calls India and Australia as the vassal states of the US, and framing China's actions towards Australia as sending a warning to other vassal states.

- The numbers cited there are not comprehensive: when measuring space launches, not counting SpaceX.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#297

Post by onethought »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #216
brabel wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe antagonising China even more will make things better? Should the EU stop all deals with the biggest exporting economy of the world, home of one in 5 human beings, because it disagrees with its policies? I will answer that: no it shouldn't. You can have a certain level of engagement even when you strongly disagree with another country. Showing aggressive behaviour, specially taking into account the hist…

That is essentially the thesis of American foreign policy in Asia since the 1980s. The results have been mixed; yes, they have a huge, prosperous middle class now, yet the government remains about as authoritarian as it ever was. Now, with technology, in fact things are getting worse. Everyone is required to have a cell phone, everyone is spied upon, a "social score" is maintained and if your score dips below a certa…

Over in the land of the free. Are the police not trawling through Facebook imagery and chat messages to arrest the “insurrectionists”? Is the spying ok when it’s sponsored by Facebook?

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#298

Post by [deleted] »

jonathannat wrote: post #225
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, many good points, but some of the same problems exist in the West and in the Asian democracies: covid, debt, aging demographics. China does have one compelling advantage: its enormous population. Even if a horrible plague or even a civil war happened and 100m people died, they still have plenty of people to accomplish anything they want. They have Ph.D. scientists, many trained at top Western universities, who a…

China's 1.3B population is not equal. around 700M still lives on $140/month income, with no education to "accomplish anything they want". It will have 500M 65 year olds by 2050, too old to "accomplish anything they want". China suffers brain drain to the West. Many of Chinese Ph.D students and scientists I know curse the day Xi Jing Ping declared himself to be the emperor, and is actively moving their families out of…

[deleted]

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#299

Post by bobthepanda »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #255
bobthepanda wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one child policy makes China’s aging problem particularly rapid, at a time when they are not wealthy enough per capita to make the transition. One child supports two parents and four grandparents. Plus a low retirement age that is only now getting extended. (60 for men, 55 for women previously). Over a third of Shanghai is over 60, as is a quarter in Beijing, Tianjin, etc. Now the one child policy has been relaxe…

I would think this is actually good for them, as more internal demand relative to supply will help further transition away from exports, and also help increases their productivity (at least if they make working hours less insane).

more internal demand but few people working is basically going to increase debt significantly, leave seniors in abject poverty, or some combination of the two. And possibly massive deflation as well since old people are on fixed incomes and don't spend too much.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#300

Post by onethought »

mijkal wrote: post #172
potiuper wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA is not a democracy it is a federal republic. Anyone who disagrees needs to recite the US pledge of allegiance, and review the US constitution. China is also a republic. But, neither of the two dominant USA parties currently espouse the Marxist Leninist doctrine.

'Democracy' and 'republic' are not mutually exclusive concepts. The US has a democratic|representative|constitutional|federal republic. It's quite disturbing to see an uptick in this claim in the recent years, as if democracy in principle is not American and ought be discarded in favor of a more illiberal system of governance. (Also, the pledge is not law, so it's a curious reference to cite as some authority on the…

US is a pretty bad implementation of democracy.

- Non compulsory voting - first past the post - superpacs - the electoral college

All contribute to an oligarchy, not a democracy. The US system seems to be designed to “feel” like a democracy while actually preserving the power of moneyed interests and land owners. It’s crazy to me that the UK has less if an oligarchy despite still having a monarchy.

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