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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#291

Post by AstralStorm »

username90 wrote: post #272
faitswulff wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the primary difference between EU and US style unions?

US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without prop…

Not even back then was this tied to being in an union in Poland, but to having right certification which anyone can get provided they document having passed training and exam.

And indeed, the force people to join bit was outlawed in EU in 2006, but it was never particularly popular outside UK anyway.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#292

Post by [deleted] »

pjc50 wrote: post #285
greggman3 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

Marriot jammed wifi in their conference centers to make you pay for theirs. Therefore hotel chains are a bad idea. /s Yes, that kind of thing is a scam to make you pay more than you need to, a.k.a. "profit maximising" for the individual. But we seem to just accept that as natural for companies while shunning individuals that do it.

[deleted]

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#293

Post by AstralStorm »

doggosphere wrote: post #175
skybrian wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you might have noticed, voting is no guarantee that good leaders are elected, nor does it necessarily prevent corruption. "We the people" is a founding myth, and it's our myth, but it's still a political myth similar to the divine right of kings, a way of justifying the rule of the many by the few. The leaders are not the masses, no matter what anyone pretends. (I'm not saying I have a better idea, but let's not b…

All systems have the potential for corruption. A representational "democracy", compared to other systems, has the least potential for corruption. If unions do in fact give workers more representation/power, than game theory says it is a worthwhile trade off, as we expect average worker gains to be net positive of any corruption losses.

Direct democracy has less of a potential for corruption than representative, especially non nested (separate tires) party based representative democracy.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#294

Post by pietrovismara »

greggman3 wrote: post #243
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

You seem to completely misunderstand what the union formed at Kickstarter is about. Nothing like what you describe, but rather giving employees more control over the company's decisions.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#295

Post by nemo44x »

eythian wrote: post #235
missedthecue wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are their salaries so low then? I'm not seeing the advantage here.

They're not that low, I'm working in tech in the Netherlands and earn well above the median, even excluding bonuses and equity and such. I imagine Germany is similar. It's more that the salaries in parts of the US seem unnaturally high.

I’m a hiring manager with a global team. Yes salaries for Europeans are generally much lower than USA employees. Except Switzerland. They’re getting paid similarly to people in the more expensive parts of the USA.

There’s a few reasons why EU compensation is so low. One is it’s expensive to hire a person in the EU. We have to pay a lot in taxes on the employees behalf. They never see this on their check stub - it’s paid as part of a payroll tax. We have these in the USA as well but much lower and parts of it phase out as the employee earns more. Keep in mind that the USA employee may have to cover certain things like part of their health care though.

Secondly it’s far more difficult to get rid of an EU employee. We can of course, but it can be more expensive.

People make more in the USA and it’s a reason a lot of people from EU/UK come here to work in professional roles. Lower taxes and lower costs of employing someone send the money to the employee. But also a lot of the covered benefits (health, pension, etc) the USA employee has to cover themselves out of their pay (pre-tax though). So in part it’s a visibility thing too.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#296

Post by pietrovismara »

sebmellen wrote: post #253
greggman3 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

That's a fantastic video. I'm commenting mostly to save the link for later, but I cannot imagine unions trying to mesh with the tech world. Can you imagine having a "frontend developers union" which disallowed backend work (or vice versa)? What a nightmare.

That's not how unions work at all and especially not the union described by OP's article. Can you imagine strongly opposing something that would benefit you, because you don't understand it nor take the time to?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#297

Post by throwaway0a5e »

pjc50 wrote: post #288
username90 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without prop…

The general term for everyone having to join the union is "closed shop". It was apparently outlawed in the US in 1947: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop so I'm not clear how that's still happening. It was declared illegal in the EU in 2006: https://www.internationallawoffice.com/Newsletters/Employmen...

>I'm not clear how that's still happening.

"Congratulations you're hired. We can either hire you with an official job title of an X at wage V or a Y and wage W, Y is a union position, here's the paperwork"

It's not a "closed shop" but in practice if you want to get paid at a level befitting the work you're doing it is. Since unions are

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#298

Post by username90 »

pjc50 wrote: post #288
username90 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without prop…

The general term for everyone having to join the union is "closed shop". It was apparently outlawed in the US in 1947: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop so I'm not clear how that's still happening. It was declared illegal in the EU in 2006: https://www.internationallawoffice.com/Newsletters/Employmen...

There is no difference between between being forced to join and being forced to pay the same dues and follow same rules. That is why right-to-work laws is important, the law in 1947 did nothing to stop it.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#299

Post by [deleted] »

pjc50 wrote: post #283
PeterStuer wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many reasons: - The typical 'pains' felt in the lopsided power relation between employer and employee were and often still are cushioned by the adequate compensation in a market where the sought after skills were in short supply - Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes. - Tech culture is one that has always idolized 'passion', so objecting to ba…

> Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes. This made me wince; while it's not straight up wrong it's a collection of generalisations about humans jammed together that deserves a slightly more delicate unpacking. Like opening an Amazon box and finding your electronics just fall out with no foam peanuts or other protection.

[deleted]

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#300

Post by username90 »

skitout wrote: post #277
username90 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without prop…

In my understanding unions that can "forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit" are exceptions not the rules in 2020 USA (and clearly not what the article was talking about). Perhaps am I ill informed (never been in USA, and my friend living there are not in unions), could you give us some sources saying that what you say is the main form of union in USA today ?

Kickstarter is such a union. Many of the union members didn't want it. I'd bet even most of the software engineers didn't want it, but were forced to since they were bundled up with a lot of unrelated professions.

> In the end, employees voted 46-to-37 in favor of unionizing

> As of February 2020, the union was made up of 85 engineers, directors, analysts, designers, coordinators, and customer support specialists

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/21257585/kickstarter-layo...

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