Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens • Hacker News Board

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#291

Post by lucideer » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:34 PM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #84

lucideer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While racism is a problem in Poland, it's not a systematic racism I absolutely agree that transplanting US talking points wholesale into non-US frames of reference is something that's often done blindly and never really applies. But the reason for this is that the issue is nuanced and has a lot of local context that needs consideration in its own right. It shouldn't be used as an excuse to dismiss the existence of…

The definition of systemic racism, as a theory, is that a country (specifically the US) was founded as a racist country (black people were the property of white people). This is not so in Poland, therefore it can't be considered systemic racism.

Do you have citations for this?

My own experience of the term's usage is to simply imply that racism is part of a system's inherent structural definition, rather than being purely reliant on individual/group biases.

In particular in Europe, one very simplistic example of this is the systemic intolerance of nomadic peoples. This is not limited to individuals discriminating against nomadic people, but rather that legislation and bureaucratic processes are in place that give inherent preference to those who are not nomadic; most obviously in laws related to property rentals and ownership, but also pervading every form of corporate and public administration.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#292

Post by Macha » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

mr_toad wrote: post #238

DanBC wrote: post #79

A mostly good article. > There has, for example, been a lot of concern about the underrepresentation of black Britons in professions like the arts and publishing. But why would you choose to go into theater or journalism—rather than law, medicine or finance—if you are a talented child of ambitious but not well off immigrants? A really weird point. There's plenty of concern about under-representation of black people i…

> We can see that 6.2% of junior doctors are black, but only 3.5% of consultants are black. Where did all those juniors go? It takes a long time for demographic shifts to work their way through a population. Senior medical staff are more likely to be white, male, and old . But in a few decades that’s going to look very different.

Well, presumably not the old part, unless career progression in the medical space speeds up somehow.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#293

Post by StavrosK » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

lucideer wrote: post #291

StavrosK wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of systemic racism, as a theory, is that a country (specifically the US) was founded as a racist country (black people were the property of white people). This is not so in Poland, therefore it can't be considered systemic racism.

Do you have citations for this? My own experience of the term's usage is to simply imply that racism is part of a system's inherent structural definition, rather than being purely reliant on individual/group biases. In particular in Europe, one very simplistic example of this is the systemic intolerance of nomadic peoples. This is not limited to individuals discriminating against nomadic people, but rather that legis…

Sure:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0415952786

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

> My own experience of the term's usage is to simply imply that racism is part of a system's inherent structural definition, rather than being purely reliant on individual/group biases.

By that definition, all racism is systemic racism, since the system is made up of people.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#294

Post by smaryjerry » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:37 PM UTC

dspillett wrote: post #195

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a British person with Caribbean family background, I found the reaction to this from the internet so strange. In Britain it's normal that the different cultures here mix. Shops selling Baltic bread, next to shops selling jerk chicken, across the road from a traditional English pub. People of all colours and backgrounds frequenting all of them. From an outside perspective, people in the USA seem very pre-occupied w…

The issue is people being offended on behalf of others (which is itself not a bad thing: we should be conscious of where we might be using culturally significant signals inappropriately, or otherwise causing offence) but being hyper-sensitive and seeing offence where it doesn't really exist in the groups that they think they are standing up for. > pre-occupied with continuing a culture of segregation I think were "cu…

The problem is being hyper sensitive is subjective. What is hyper sensitive to you is absolutely normal to someone else. I don’t ever find it wrong to “culturally appropriate” and I don’t even know how it became a thing. I can’t actually think of any reason why it would be bad to start sharing aspects of culture whether it is clothes, music, or language. It brings people together with commonality. People enjoy copying things they like. I wouldn’t ever say someone can’t wear my outfit because my outfit is important to me. The way I see this term used in America is use by racists as a way to be racist against whites who they perceive don’t deserve the freedom to dress any way they want.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#295

Post by thefz » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:37 PM UTC

drumhead wrote: post #62

Adele, the singer, was photographed at the Nottinghill Carnival (a massive Carribean street festival over the August bank holiday in London) with her hair in Bantu Knots and wearing a bikini top in the colours of the Jamaican flag. As soon as it was on twitter the you started getting tweets from Black Americans about cultural appropriation, but this was met in turn by fierce opposition from African and Carribean post…

As an Italian, stop eating pizza, Americans. You are culturally appropriating our food.

Jokes aside, this happening on Twitter and so it must be somewhat important is the most depressing and disheartening aspect of this event. Stop listening to what ignorants want to say on social media.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#296

Post by szatkus » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:38 PM UTC

simonklitj wrote: post #40

gambiting wrote: post #6

The problem exists elsewhere too, because of the extremely widespread proliferation of American media - I see the Polish media taking american talking points about race, sexuality, religion, and just transplanting them wholesale into the Polish frame of reference as if they were equally important here - more often than not, they simply aren't. While racism is a problem in Poland, it's not a systematic racism like in…

We've got to ask ourselves why the media takes on the American talking points, then? Where is the searching of ones own culture and country, so that we might face-off with the unique problems we then have in our countries? Is this a problem of journalism, or is it because it is easier to adopt american problems, and thereby neglect our own, real problems?

Most journalists knows at least their native language and English. So when they need something to write about, it's easy to import some problems from English-speaking nations.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#297

Post by waheoo » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:39 PM UTC

doctor_eval wrote: post #264

apexalpha wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the difficult things about racism is that it does not matter how we (ie, people of European descent) feel about it, but how the people we're talking about feel about it. For what it's worth you are doing the EXACT same thing the post in this article is about: you are pushing a very American view on racism. First of all, racism is absolutely not White -> Black. Or White -> Aboriginal. If you think that I'd assu…

I’m not pushing a view on racism, I’m saying that the OP’s statements are clearly racist. I just applied the dictionary definition of the term. I never said that racism was white/black, but I was writing specifically in the context of European racism against Aboriginals in Australia, which happens to be fairly black and white. I’m happy to discuss racism in other countries, but that wasn’t the topic at hand. Of cours…

As someone who does experience racism on the regular I don't have quite the same level of trouble discerning racism from biggotry.

One is extremely diminishing and the other is a pretty easy to write off as ignorance, differing upbringing, and a general intolerance of difference.

If you need me to spell out a clear cut example of racism it's a few comments earlier where you assumed I was white and discounted my views on this matter solely because of it. Either that or what I was saying didn't fit your American centric narrative.

For what it's worth,

"statistically, aboriginal people commit more crime. Studies have shown that this is because of chronic health and economic issues which have never been adequately addressed by any Australian government"

Was pretty much the gist of what I was getting at but I thought that was pretty obvious given the context and adding the context doesn't really make my statement any more or less factual. More credible maybe, but if you took my remarks on good faith it wouldn't have been a problem. But that is the problem with this American narrative, everyone is too busy trying to win, nobody is trying to look at facts for what they are and find the common ground therein.

These facts don't make aboriginal people any less human or any less successful as a people. They're just shitty truths about the world.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#298

Post by fastball » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:42 PM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #221

fastball wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TFA is talking about racism as if it can be seen through the lens of how an entire nation feels about and handles racism, so that seems like a reasonable way of talking about it in this thread.

The article is about contexts for racism differing between countries. It’s not about saying “x country is super racist.”

In response to someone saying "our country is not racist like America is".

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#299

Post by waheoo » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #114

waheoo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that isn't racist at all. Unfortunate, an injustice, a tragedy, a disaster, a systemic failure to integrate, yes. But racist? You're going to have to spell that one out for me. Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Thats a symptom of a problem that predates most of us sitting here in our armchairs. Talk about the real problem not the symptom, but whatever you do, don't start calling all whi…

> a systemic failure to integrate You're talking about white Europeans failure to integrate with Indigenous Australian societies, right?

Did I specify?

Cultural integration requires both cultures to integrate.

No, it isn't equal sided, no it isn't fair what has happened, but ignoring the current status quo and positing Europeans should be actively trying to go bush is just facetious.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#300

Post by thefz » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:53 PM UTC

I'd be really really careful stating that "you can't be racist against whites" outside the US. According to where you say it in Europe, such a bold claim can get you in quite the discussion.

I'll never get why the all-encompassing "racism is the discrimination on the basis of race" must be corrected by narrower american version of "no, only if it's systemic". But that is already included in the original definition... or is it a shortcut to hate on whites?