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Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

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Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#291

Post by newbie789 »

ashtonkem wrote: post #281
newbie789 wrote: post #280

It's fascinating how emotional of a topic this is on HN. A lot of people seem to be taking a staunch binary, black-and-white, us-vs-them approach to this issue. I've known friends that hate their unions (usually retail), and those that love their unions (electricians, UPS drivers etc.) These are of course just a small group of anecdotes and not representative of a comprehensive dataset so I don't really have a strong…

There are two separate issues here. They’re only tangentially related. 1) Unions, good or bad? 2) Is it appropriate for a company like Amazon to spy on their work force to stop them from unionizing, as compared to persuading their work force that unionizing would be bad?

The majority of my post was addressing the way that this is being discussed on here. There have been a lot of nasty comments on this issue ranging from accusing people of being Pinkertons and bots, to posts about declining meritocracy etc.

It seems as though this thread has had a whole lot of posts conflating the two issues you mentioned and it just muddies the waters imho.

As I mentioned, I think it should be a good-faith discussion across the board and I'm not a fan of bullying or misleading people.

I could be misunderstanding this but the discussion about your second point has been in some cases in this thread been supplanted by people arguing about who is on the "right side" rather than the more immediate discussion of "is this an acceptable practice?"

Like I said earlier, it's really fascinating how emotional this gets.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#293

Post by whoisjuan »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #287

I am surprised from the reactions here. What is the best way to deal with worker union blackmails according to you? I know people like to portray worker and amazon as good guy and bad guy, but I think most of us has seen some demands that are pretty outrageous from them. I think it is best if both sides have contact person with whom they can negotiate. Don't get me wrong, I think worker unions are essential for pushi…

I think the problem is mainly the methods. Delta, for example, actively runs campaigns to deter their employees for joining the union. I don't know how is that perceived in general but I assume that people in general consider that more acceptable than the idea of running internal counterintelligence to prevent the formation of unions.

The reality is that Amazon is under so much scrutiny that pretty much any program on this area would be criticized.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#294

Post by shadowgovt »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #285
shadowgovt wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, apparently, the case that creating an environment where a reasonable person would feel surveilled is in violation of the law. Concrete things that are highlighted as out-of-bounds: 1) Putting a dummy security camera in a breakroom 2) Hiring someone to sit in a car in the company parking lot and pretend to talk into a phone every time someone goes to their car Given that wide constraint, I can definitely see ho…

Are we talking about being unethical or illegal? I think putting even a real camera in breakout room is legal in almost all of the world. If the second story is correct, which I doubt, even that could be legal. Attendance system is used by many companies with report being sent to manager.

Apologies; I misremembered the details of the second example.

"having a supervisor sit in a car while observing union activity and talking on the phone, even if the conversation is not a report on the union activity."

https://digitalcommons.law.seattleu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?...

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#295

Post by burfog »

supercollision wrote: post #276
badRNG wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't think getting bogged down in a political discussion here is a good idea (and I don't necessarily disagree,) I do think it is interesting how ignorant Americans often are of the many literal battles in the war for humane working conditions. It might be worth reading about how workers were bombed and gunned down during the labor movement (late 19th, early 20th centuries) in the US, notably the Battle of B…

+1 to your post and links. I'm also surprised by how much anti-union sentiment exists in the US; things like the 40-hour workweek and concept of overtime were paid for in blood.

Now the work week is less than 30 hours. Yay! All it took was requiring health insurance for employees with 30 hours.

By that strategy, we could have a 10-hour work week if we wanted it.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#296

Post by fiter »

sudosysgen wrote: post #214
umvi wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so then how does a unionized company stay competitive if it isn't allowed to cut costs by reducing employee compensation? You are suggesting only unions know the effective secret methods of cutting costs that business-textbook-writers are unaware of?

It's quite simple. They either cut profits, or offer employees equity in compensation for lower wages. That goes against what the owners want, but it helps the workers and maintains the usefulness of the enterprise.

I believe in the competitive scenario, there are no profits to cut. It's not clear to me if equity is worth anything if there are no profits to distribute and the company is not growing.

I think the point is that whether it is a "nice employer" or a union, the company will be less competitive. This strikes me as a tragedy of the commons which would have to be resolved by legislation to force all market participants to offer the same benefits. (Of course, the difficulty then are participants putside of your legal system, but taroffs could hopefully capture this detail.)

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#297

Post by grecy »

Strang wrote: post #189
csb6 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it’s discouraging. But Hacker News is a place for capitalists (self-identified) or wannabe capitalists to hold discussions, and the site is run by a venture capital firm, so makes sense. Still discouraging to see the lack of education HNers have on unions. Maybe ignorance is a better word.

Well-informed, good-faith disagreement is possible on a range of topics, including this one.

I agree wholeheartedly, though I'm not seeing much disagreement or discussion, I'm just seeing downvotes on any comment that even suggests the remote possibility unions might actually be a good thing.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#298

Post by TaylorAlexander »

sudosysgen wrote: post #233
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Germany has kept so many factories (it would seem) because labor doesn’t want to offshore their own jobs, even if management is indifferent.

I think you might be interested in what Richard Wolff has to say.

I’ve met him! He signed my copy of Democracy at Work. So yes you’re right! :)

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#299

Post by phs318u »

crististm wrote: post #193
beeboop wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, go on and continue the propaganda about how socialism and communism doesn't work. Please point to failed nations/states that had communism and explain how they failed due to communism and that it definitely wasn't anything else.

Yes, they work alright, that is, until they turn into totalitarianism. Which they did, everywhere they were implemented.

History isn’t over. If you think capitalism isn’t tending the same way (with the example of China showing how successfully it can work), you haven’t been paying attention.
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