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TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

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Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#291

Post by true_religion »

_8j50 wrote: post #274
bhupy wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US President is granted wide-ranging authority to regulate international commerce The executive order doesn't outright ban the use of TikTok (the app), it just places a ban on "any transactions subject to the jurisdiction of the United States with ByteDance", which in essence makes it impossible for people to find the app on an App store. It's almost identical to the Huawei/ZTE executive orders. It's a bit like a…

Non-commercial transactions of information can't be regulated. US advertisers can be banned from doing business with tiktok but it is a free app. If someone in China called you and read out loud every byte in the tiktok app and you wrote it down in notepad and saved it,is that speech or commerce? It is speech in my opinion. They can regulate commerce but for software and crypto they can't regulate the transfer of inf…

Effectively no one treats computer software as simple information.

But even if that were the case, you can ban sharing knowledge under obscenity clauses, national security clauses, or because it incite violence.

TikTok is being banned as a threat to national security, because having your preeminent communications tool run by a foreign government is inane, unless you are or want to become a colony of that government.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#292

Post by vorpalhex »

_8j50 wrote: post #274
bhupy wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US President is granted wide-ranging authority to regulate international commerce The executive order doesn't outright ban the use of TikTok (the app), it just places a ban on "any transactions subject to the jurisdiction of the United States with ByteDance", which in essence makes it impossible for people to find the app on an App store. It's almost identical to the Huawei/ZTE executive orders. It's a bit like a…

Non-commercial transactions of information can't be regulated. US advertisers can be banned from doing business with tiktok but it is a free app. If someone in China called you and read out loud every byte in the tiktok app and you wrote it down in notepad and saved it,is that speech or commerce? It is speech in my opinion. They can regulate commerce but for software and crypto they can't regulate the transfer of inf…

> If someone in China called you and read out loud every byte in the tiktok app and you wrote it down in notepad and saved it,is that speech or commerce?

Nobody cares about the source code. Everyone cares about sending data back to the CCP. If Tik Tok/ByteDance wants to stop being a tool of the CCP and engaging in the persecution of Uigher Muslims, then they can go back to offering us an app with funny dances.

> They can regulate commerce but for software and crypto they can't regulate the transfer of information,they can only regulate commercial activity with that information

Crypto exports are regulated.

> They can't ban someone from mailing you the communist manifesto for free as a book or handwritten letter

Actually at one point sending pornography through the USPS WAS banned. Typically political speech gets stronger protections though.

> so they can't ban a communist manifesto app download or punish anyone for facilitating that transfer.

The issue isn't spreading the communist manifesto. It's human rights abuses of a religious minority including forced sterilization - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/china-conducting-mass-steril...

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#293

Post by ta17711771 »

ailun wrote: post #89

I hope they win. Living in China, I told my friends here that at least they will have their day in court - a win would really help show an advantage of the US system in a high-profile way. Trump is doing so much to hurt the US image among Chinese citizens right now. His administration emphasizes the importance of the distinction between the government and the people, but his actions are only driving the two closer to…

> There’s no way I can get rid of WeChat...

Just strong network effects, or what

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#294

Post by throw44532 »

nafizh wrote: post #277
gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

How is it a fair playing field if US companies can't do business in China, and Chinese companies can do in US?

They can. They just need to comply with China’s data and censorship laws.

It’s why Microsoft and Apple are available in China.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#295

Post by ictebres »

nafizh wrote: post #277
gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

How is it a fair playing field if US companies can't do business in China, and Chinese companies can do in US?

Well you can’t assume a fair playing field between USA and any other country, let alone a developing one. They needed protectionist measures to be able to industrialize as well as they did.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#296

Post by crazygringo »

Good. We have something called "due process" in the US, and the attempted TikTok ban violates it.

Due process is a bedrock of American law. It means government officials can't just "do what they want" and make arbitrary decisions with specific targets -- which is exactly what the TikTok ban is.

You want to ban TikTok? Great, you need a specific law from Congress that outlines under what circumstances companies may be banned in the US, and then prove the specific company meets those standards.

None of that has been done here. The president is not a dictator. TikTok should absolutely sue.

Note: this is regardless of anything TikTok has actually done privacy- or security-wise. The point isn't whether they're dangerous, the point is whether we can meet some standard of showing that they're dangerous. If they're dangerous, we need to establish how and why legally. This is what separates the rule of law from dictatorship.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#297

Post by squarefoot »

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #245
squarefoot wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the problem. I'm not a US citizen, but let's pretend I am; as a normal citizen (ie, not a politician or high profile important person) would I be more concerned about my personal data being sent to a foreign country who doesn't know me, my family, my job, and very likely will never give a damn about what i think, or rather my own government who has all interests to know what I think, especially during pro…

You make it sound like you are forced to download the app at gunpoint.

Ah sorry, that wasn't my intention, I don't even use smartphones or social media, smartTVs or closed source operating systems/software (1).

My point was, if I have to be concerned about privacy (in fact I actually am, see above) why should I fear about a foreign government while my own one is without any doubt more interested in knowing what I think? Of course should one day I become an important public figure, or a key person in some critical environment, all the data about me would suddenly become gold; that's a very valid point by another commenter. Of course my post was from the point of view of someone who doesn't plan, nor could even choose, to become one anytime soon.

(1) hence my comments where very often I argue about closed device drivers and blobs, which are the best possible place for planting spyware.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#298

Post by throw44532 »

macintux wrote: post #281
panpanna wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, buy according to US law American companies must comply with government requests even if the data is stored abroad. So basically, why should anyone trust a US company if US thinks tiktok giving data to their government is a problem?

American companies have a legal system to protect them against unlawful requests. That rule of law is under attack, but exists, which does not seem to be the case for China.

Don’t National Security Letters and a Secret Courts bypass that?

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#299

Post by lostmsu »

anonymousab wrote: post #254
La1n wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cause if they don't you can punish them according to the law. That's how laws work.

Which is what the US seems to be attempting to do. The president does, under the law, have fairly broad powers when it comes to foreign nations.

With no clear rules set around the issue I don't trust the president to do random judging.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#300

Post by throw44532 »

mantap wrote: post #135
Negitivefrags wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be a better argument if the US was doing the same thing China is doing. China has censorship laws that you might not like, but you can certainly still choose to comply if you want to be in that market. Indeed, many US companies have chosen to do so and participate in that market while others feel the cost is too high and do not. What could TikTok do to comply here and be allowed in the US? It wasn't banned…

That's not correct. To enter the Chinese market you need to do it with a Chinese company.

That’s not correct. Tesla did not partner with any Chinese company.
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