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When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

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Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#291

Post by dragonwriter »

cwhiz wrote: post #238
dragonwriter wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if we rewrite the dictionary and legal texts, Apple would be part of a duopoly, not a monopoly. If Apple has pricing power because people don't move to competitors, they are a monopoly in the eyes of the law no matter how many players are in the same commonly-described market segment and what their sizes are. > If you try to redefine monopoly to mean that Apple has a monopoly over their own platform If that pl…

Your argument here is basically that Apple charges a lot so they must be a monopoly. Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. Apple's share of the smartphone market is shrinking, not growing. The basic premise of your argument is factually invalid. The fact that Apple can charge a premium despite being a minority player, and despite their marketshare shrinking, is evidence of their excellent marketing, not…

> Your argument here is basically that Apple charges a lot so they must be a monopoly.

You are wrong in two respects.

First, I am not taking a position o whether Apple meets the test for monopoly.

Second, the test is pricing power (the ability to raise prices without defection to competitors) not “high prices”. This is more important than how many players might be in any popular description of the market, because it is test of whether those other players are in fact competing with the player in question, or whether they are in objectively separate markets even if the usual popular description is of a single market.

> Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true

Correct, wanting “are there more players in what is typically described in the press as the market in which the actor is participating” to be the main legal test for monopoly instead of pricing power does not make it so.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#292

Post by 0x0 »

kumarvvr wrote: post #21
wlesieutre wrote: post #7

Does this mean if there's a developer I don't like, I can buy their stuff and refund it to arbitrarily cost them money at no cost to myself and there's nothing they can do about it? That seems ... not great, especially these days. What happens when mobs of internet morons decide review bombing isn't sufficient and realize Apple will help them cause direct financial harm instead?

It will not cost them money, per se. Apple is keeping money from you.

If your app costs $100, and you only sell 100 copies, and they all ask for a refund, then at the end of the month you owe Apple $3000?

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#293

Post by dragonwriter »

perl4ever wrote: post #159
dragonwriter wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if we rewrite the dictionary and legal texts, Apple would be part of a duopoly, not a monopoly. If Apple has pricing power because people don't move to competitors, they are a monopoly in the eyes of the law no matter how many players are in the same commonly-described market segment and what their sizes are. > If you try to redefine monopoly to mean that Apple has a monopoly over their own platform If that pl…

>If Apple has pricing power because people don't move to competitors I'm not taking sides, or claiming I'm an expert on economics, but isn't the question with monopolies always "what is the market, and what are the competitors"? If you accuse someone of being a monopoly, they will always define their market as widely as possible, but if you are an antitrust lawyer trying to win a case against them you will define it…

> I'm not taking sides, or claiming I'm an expert on economics, but isn't the question with monopolies always "what is the market, and what are the competitors"?

Pricing power is a key way in which that question is answered: if an actor doesn't have it, the people to whom business goes when they raise prices are the rest of the market they are in. If they do have it, there are no actual competitors.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#294

Post by meed2000 »

ejo4041 wrote: post #157
ikeboy wrote: post #136

Amazon does the same thing. You can lose more on a return than you make on a regular order. Amazon makes more on many orders than sellers do.

Amazon FBA seller here. I came to look for the Amazon comment. Their returns are pretty messed up and hurt the sellers. Customer can return for any reason and the seller has to eat it. Often times it is very hard to track returns down if people return the wrong stuff. If it's broken or damaged, amazon will side with the customer 100% of the time. On top of all that, if you dispose of a damaged, non-sell-able item, th…

I stopped selling on Amazon nearly 10 years ago. FBA was a newly introduced feature which was the trigger for me see Amazon's disrespect for 3rd party sellers.

They skim the seller for the sale (because they do the marketing for you). They skim on payment processing (it costs them less than they charge) They skim for exposure (ads are almost a must have to ever appear in search results). They then skim on delivery via FBA (they charge more than it costs them). And they skim on warehousing via FBA (the pricing was already unbelievable back then).

Fast forward 10 years, they have started to skim sellers off their business analysis and risk taking effort (They have the data, and will compete with 3rd party sellers on products that sell decently enough, and even place their product before yours).

I've recently taken the time to edited and publish a book that is in the public domain, on their KDP platform, a few days later I see that Amazon is selling that same book and even redirect customer clicks from my page description and book cover to their line item to buy.

Amazon has no limit.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#295

Post by TheKarateKid »

wlesieutre wrote: post #7

Does this mean if there's a developer I don't like, I can buy their stuff and refund it to arbitrarily cost them money at no cost to myself and there's nothing they can do about it? That seems ... not great, especially these days. What happens when mobs of internet morons decide review bombing isn't sufficient and realize Apple will help them cause direct financial harm instead?

Getting a refund from Apple is really difficult, so I don’t think this would be a problem.

I once forgot to cancel a subscription, cancelled one day after renewal, and they would NOT refund me. It was a time based pricing model, so it’s not like I could’ve used any in-app credits.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#296

Post by Dylan16807 »

snazz wrote: post #283
jclardy wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is part of what is holding back iPad software. You can't charge $100 for Sketch and lose $30 when someone asks for a refund. Apple designed this around $1-$10 apps where losing $2 at volume is fine. What is worse, is that Apple doesn't remove the app from the user's device. When you get a refund of a paid app it is on the honor system for them to delete it. It is removed from their account, so they can n…

I'm glad that Apple can't remotely delete apps from my device. It would be somewhat dystopic if they had that capability.

But they could make the refund wait until you do!

It wouldn't be foolproof in case of backups but it would be a lot better than an honor system.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#298

Post by tomduncalf »

davidwhodge wrote: post #250

This does not match my experience with my App, Nikola. I've been able to match up the transactions and refunds as 1 to 1, price-wise.

Interesting. I wonder if it varies from region to region perhaps? Going to do a bit more research as this guy seems quite convinced they are taking the cut but evidently you’ve experienced otherwise!

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#299

Post by efreak »

snazz wrote: post #283
jclardy wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is part of what is holding back iPad software. You can't charge $100 for Sketch and lose $30 when someone asks for a refund. Apple designed this around $1-$10 apps where losing $2 at volume is fine. What is worse, is that Apple doesn't remove the app from the user's device. When you get a refund of a paid app it is on the honor system for them to delete it. It is removed from their account, so they can n…

I'm glad that Apple can't remotely delete apps from my device. It would be somewhat dystopic if they had that capability.

There's more than one way to do this. If the purchase is refunded on the device, the app can be uninstalled at the same time; this is how Google does it. If the app is refunded on another device or in the browser, then all it takes is for the app store to keep track of app licenses (which it already does) and remove apps when their license disappears.

It seems odd, though, that Apple wouldn't have an API that allows locking app functionally behind licenses; on Android [1],

> With Google Play Licensing, your application can query Google Play at run time to obtain the licensing status for the current user, then allow or disallow further use as appropriate. > ... > Note: The Google Play Licensing service is primarily intended for paid applications that wish to verify that the current user did in fact pay for the application on Google Play. However, any application (including free apps) may use the licensing service to initiate the download of an APK expansion file.

In other words, the licensing service checks for both IAPs as well as if you've paid for the app itself.

[1]: https://developer.android.com/google/play/licensing

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#300

Post by arbuge »

Of note: as of last October, if a PayPal merchant refunds a customer for any reason, PayPal is no longer refunding their payment processing fee. The merchant will need to refund that to the customer at their own expense to grant the customer a full refund.
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