Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

theinternetbytes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 381 posts

Re: Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

#291

Post by ehsankia »

gsich wrote: post #244
gorgoiler wrote: post #195

With the utmost respect to you and the other commenters here, when I see positivity about the abstract, hypothetical technical merits of something with a long history of, in practice, being part of an extremely controversial power play it reminds me a lot of the comments I see promoting a widely installed piece of process management software — one which a lot of people don’t really want, whose subtle changes to layer…

>Well at least under Google AMP, the pages loaded on time. Yeah, because Google is cheating.

How is providing a framework which forces greedy publisher to keep their websites light "cheating".

Re: Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

#292

Post by ehsankia »

foepys wrote: post #52
realusername wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see indeed, I don't think they are going with the right approach here, there should be an automatic way to upgrade signed content / check for updates, short signatures just destroys the benefits of the feature.

It's the only way to do it. TLS has shown that OCSP and the likes are not adding significant security and short certificate expiration is the only way to go. The serving nodes are not necessarily under control of a well intended party that complies with upgrade requests.

And I don't see the issue with short expiry. The point of a cache is to reduce load, not to entirely eliminate it. Even with a 5m expiry, it's still 5 orders of magnitude better than having a 100+ QPS on your server.

Re: Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

#293

Post by tyingq »

gowld wrote: post #260
gregable wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same could be said of any CDN hosted javascript library. For example: jquery. There is an open intent to implement support for publishers self-hosting the AMP library as well.

What's an open intent? Where is this documented?

AMP spec: https://amp.dev/documentation/guides-and-tutorials/learn/spe...

"AMP HTML documents MUST..."

"The AMP runtime is loaded via the mandatory " rel="nofollow">https://cdn.ampproject.org/v0.js"> tag in the AMP document ."

Do a whois on ampproject.org:

"Registrant Organization: Google LLC Registrant State/Province: CA Registrant Country: US Admin Organization: Google LLC"

Note that jQuery, as mentioned in some GP comment has no such requirement. Google AMP is quite unique in this regard. This is NOT some general CDN type issue. Also...agreed, WTF is "open intent"?

Re: Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

#294

Post by ehsankia »

ddevault wrote: post #248
realusername wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being completely against AMP for obvious reasons, I'm personally not against signed exchanges itself, this feature could spawn a whole new class of decentralised and harder to censor web hosting, that sounds like a great addition.

No... no, it would not. It would centralize web hosting and make it less censorship resistant. Sure, you could move it somewhere else and have it show up in the address bar the same, but the actual URL has changed and you need to somehow get the new URL into people's hands. And ultimately you've centralized a lot of websites under a smaller number of service providers which, before, would have been on their own domai…

I'm not sure what you describe there but it sounds much more complicated than it is.

Isn't signed exchanges basically CDN's without having to setup DNS? It's in theory no different than using CloudFlare to serve your content, except any CDN can just serve it without giving them access to your domain.

Re: Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

#295

Post by hootbootscoot »

antpls wrote: post #287
mclightning wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is really using the dedicated apps for each news site? Web is just way more practical; for translation, for copy-paste, for sharing. Besides,you dont need the app on your mobile.

I bet non-techie people _already_ read their daily dose of news from 1 to 2 news websites at most. Installing a dedicated app is not much different than surfing the same 2 websites everyday. Also, for techie people, do you consider RSS as part of the "web" ? To me, an RSS aggregator app is superior to browsing 20 different news websites, all with different formats. "web is just way more practical" isn't obvious. It d…

RSS should make a comeback

Re: Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

#296

Post by ehsankia »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #263
capableweb wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current implementation of the AMP cache servers obviously doesn't help the decentralization. I think what Spivak is saying though is right. If we could move from location addressing (dns+ip) to content-addressing , but not via the AMP cache servers, in general, anyone could serve any content on the web. Add in signing of the content addressing, and now you can also verify that content is coming from NYTimes for e…

I think this would require an entirely new user interface to make it abundantly clear that publisher and distributor are seperate roles and can be seperate entities. I don't think this should be shoehorned into the URL bar or into some meta info that no one ever reads hidden behind some obscure icon.

Isn't it already the case though with CloudFlare and other CDNs serving most of the content? Very few people really get their content from the actual source server anymore.

Re: Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

#297

Post by gorgoiler »

simias wrote: post #278
gorgoiler wrote: post #195

With the utmost respect to you and the other commenters here, when I see positivity about the abstract, hypothetical technical merits of something with a long history of, in practice, being part of an extremely controversial power play it reminds me a lot of the comments I see promoting a widely installed piece of process management software — one which a lot of people don’t really want, whose subtle changes to layer…

I don't like systemd and I think it's an overengineered mess of dubious value but comparing an open source linux init system to the long game Google seems to be playing to act as a proxy for the web is absurd and doesn't make any sense at any level. Your comment is pure flamebait without any insight.

The long game which X seems to be playing to take control of Y

Oh, exactly that: Google/AMP with the web, systemd with Linux.

The point though isn't about the technology or the tactics. It's about the seemingly-benign apologia from third parties that bit-by-bit chips away at the objectors' arguments. It's part of how X wins their long game and takes control of Y.

I don't even think the original comment to which I replied does this, but it reminded me of a pattern. The way in which AMP/web and systemd/Linux are playing out are similar enough to be worth thinking about.

(I almost certainly lack any kind of meaningful insight and – according to quite a few others here – an ability to write. It's disappointing to be accused of pure flamebait though.)

Re: Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

#298

Post by jolux »

catalogia wrote: post #282
yesenadam wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems I have to "register" with the Economist to read that.

It's a reference to "Say what you like about Mussolini, he made the trains run on time." This quip is generally used sarcastically or wryly. "Say what you like about [something that's seriously bad], at least [frivolous matter] has improved."

As far as I know it’s not even true of Mussolini though.

Re: Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

#299

Post by simias »

wmf wrote: post #83
IncRnd wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google by definition wants to cover-up the domain name that serves amp web pages. Over half of the article discusses that. For your question about fastly, I already answered that in the comment you replied. The fastly CDN requires that the DNS is configured to point at fastly servers. Take a look at https://docs.fastly.com/en/guides/sign-up-and-create-your-fi... under "Start serving traffic through Fastly". Once you’…

Users don't see DNS records. In the old world they click on a nytimes.com link and get something served from a Fastly server, but in the future AMP world they click on nytimes.com and get it served from a Google server. It isn't different.

I agree with you, if I understand the signed exchange proposal correctly the trust model is effectively similar (NYT explicitly opts to let Fastly pretend to be them through their DNS config in the same way that a signed exchange would let them explicitly opt into letting Google pretend to be them).

I'm still opposed to the change, I see this centralization of the web through CDNs as a bad thing, I don't want to make it easier.

Re: Where Am I? NYTimes or Google?

#300

Post by fabrice_d »

ehsankia wrote: post #294
ddevault wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... no, it would not. It would centralize web hosting and make it less censorship resistant. Sure, you could move it somewhere else and have it show up in the address bar the same, but the actual URL has changed and you need to somehow get the new URL into people's hands. And ultimately you've centralized a lot of websites under a smaller number of service providers which, before, would have been on their own domai…

I'm not sure what you describe there but it sounds much more complicated than it is. Isn't signed exchanges basically CDN's without having to setup DNS? It's in theory no different than using CloudFlare to serve your content, except any CDN can just serve it without giving them access to your domain.

Or you could store signed exchanges on platforms like Dat or IPFS and get real decentralization.
Post reply on HN